Oceania General Hypocracy Discussion

Oh, sure, they had access to all the diseases that we had, and they had plenty of time to develop and immuno-response to the diseases and virus' we brought from Europe. And, I must draw attention to the fact that they even had a metabolism that was used to breaking down alcohol before we got here.

I love how you guys won't touch the genocide issue, because you know you can't justify it.

You don't touch the whole deaths in custody issue, because it can't be defended.

You don't disagree that if the current state of affairs could lead to more desperate recourses being adopted.

You pick apart the notion that a majority of their health ailments are resultant from introduced bacteria. Which is my fault for not being clear; since I've noted that a large number of health issues are resultant from introduced viral and similar cultures - and indeed, endemic of the poor prospects and intrenched racism facing the indigenous population, I ask of you; how can you defend the mistreatment of Aborigines unless you think they're no better than animals?

Creating jobs for Aboriginals

ONCE AGAIN, IT IS ABORIGINE. You keep making this mistake I'm gonna conclude either your education is lacking or you're racist. GET IT RIGHT.

And thanks for the lesson about PA; luckily for you I have already had experience with the indigenous population. Sorry!

You may want to look up the writings of Prof. Colin Tatz. It'd educate you, beyond the whole "WHITE MEN = TEH WIN!!!1!" mentality you're expressing.

And don't give me this "I'm not racist but the ABORIGINES get lots and waste it", because you are racist.

E_S

EDIT: Also, don't hold back if you feel like accusing me of betraying my white culture of heritage or race or whatever. I mean, it's the standard response in face to face conversations where it's not recorded. If you guys feel this, say it! Don't be ashamed!

 

The reason why I won't touch the genocide issue, is because I believe that argument is absolutely, utterly ridiculous, and not even worth debating on.

 

Fine, if I am a racist, then you are an apologist.

 

Okay Gath, it wasn't genocide. It was the right thing to do by the children? Maybe if we did more of it today, we could complete a full circle of cultural genocide as well... We don't want to take them away, we just want to deny them their culture today. It's a much more effective method, don't you think?


Open your ***damn eyes. Yes, you see what is happening to the aboriginal people in the Northern Territory, it happens on a lesser scale on Swanston St in Melbourne too. But by simply saying "why don't they get a job, they are lazy bludgers", why don't you consider why these people are where they are.

Scenario only
Consider being invaded by the Chinese tomorrow, being altered to a Communist society whereby your English is useless and you are unemployable without Mandarin. Your family and you are forced to split up because you've been spotted having "anti-communist" sentiments and spit on posters of Mao. The Chinese smoke opium for relaxation (remember, scenario only) which is sold cheaply everwhere. They force you to accept opium for your house, which you think is great, opium has a weird effect upon you which you like. After a few years, you can speak scraps of Madarin and the Chinese have pitied you and given you and your family a small amount of money (nowhere enough to live on) which you, now addicted to opium, blow on drugs. Your sister is raped by a Chinese military officer and once she has a child, it is taken away from her to be educated in the Chinese way, for that is the "right way".

Your sister yearns for her child and fights the legal system for it, but they laugh at her and she goes on a downward spiral, is kicked out of her squallered government provided home to live on the streets and smoke opium for a living. You, frustrated with the situation you have been placed in, try to rise up against the people and set up an embassy in Mao City (formerly Canberra) which is promptly torn down as it is illegal. Most Chinese people laugh at you with your poor hygiene and opium addiction, you can't find work because the people are biased against you, and your skills acquired from the Australian lifestyle are laughed at as being obsolete and childish in the technologically advanced Chinese society.

Your old house is a distant memory and those few Chinese people with legal power who side with you try to help you regain it, with only limited success; the Chinese don't recognise your ownership of the land. They also laugh at Christianity, seeing it as a childish belief system (honestly, what man can walk on water and come back to life?) and force you to convert to the socialist cult, effectively a divinity of Mao.

The young people of your dwindling community (most of which have been "cleansed" for opposing the invading forces, placed in jail for petty crimes due to mandatory sentencing, or living on the streets smoking opium) have few opportunities given to them and lack viable role models except a few tokenistic members of parliament (mostly the "Anglo People's Commission" - a red tape organisation used to justify representation of the anglo people) and some who have excelled at sport. There is a high youth suicide rate and teen pregnancy (some due to rape) is phoenomenal compared to the Chinese population.

Money is tight, the Chinese drugs addictive and opportunities are few for your Anglo people. You are enraged, but unable to help and become part of a self-detructive cycle of opium abuse, living in squallor and caring little for yourself, rather focusing upon where your next high is coming from. Your kids seem to be travelling the same path as you and the Chinese people are not interested in what little rights you have. They make no apologies for their invasion; nobody owned this land, you weren't making use of it and you aren't a real human being. You can't vote in socialist elections until 160 years after Chinese settlement (Chinese women are able to vote 65 years previously) and your people are downtrodden.



A hyperbole? Maybe. But it isn't that far from the Aboriginal situation.

 

Yeah, I am an apologist. I'm sorry that this great nation is stained by the crimes of the past and is too proud to admit to them. I'm sorry as all hell that what happened was a genocide and we lack the responsibility as a nation to admit to that.

As a patriot, I am ashamed of what happened.

Why is it ridiculous? The letter of the law is clear and absolute.

1948 - Raphael Lemkin drafts the Convention on genocide. At Stalinist Russia's insistence, the persecution of political groups is not considered genocide.

At the same time, in a practise that spanned decades was in full swing. The idea was to take Aboriginal infants from their families and assimilate them into white families and white society. The idea was to breed out their aboriginiality, diluting their blood with each successive reproduction. Anyone familiar with The Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith will know what I mean.

Australia has ratified, but not implemented, the Convention, which means that whilst an international authority, if it chose to do so, could hold the Australian Goverment responsible (under customary international law) for the Stolen generation, but the Government does not have any legal means to punish the crime of genocide.

Why, then, would they sign a treaty but not make it domestic law?

Answer? Because they knew what it meant.

Gath, this is obviously a personal issue for me; I can't stand injustice. So if I get a little high and mighty, I apologise.

Here is a link to the UN OHCHR, which contains the Convention:

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, 1948

Here is Articles I - III of the Convention, their relevant sections in bold and blue;

Article 1

The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3

The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide.

Now, unless you dispute the expressed terms of the Convention, or unless you dispute the intent of the Stolen Generation, no matter how benign you wish to spin it, you cannot come to any logical conclusion other than Genocide. We're talking legal definition and as genocide is a jus cogen it only matters under international law insofar as definitions go.

You say it's ridiculous; I maintain it's perfect tenable. I have made an accusation and supported it under Customary International Law, which, as I stated, is what matters here. If you consider it ridiculous after reading this; then offer me a legal alternative. Disprove my arguement. By doing this, however, you cannot spin the events to make them appear benign. You cannot say out intent was not as malicious as the Nazis, therefore it's not right to call it genocide, because it clearly is a genocide. It was undertaken with the intent of removing a majority of a race from the planet through breeding and cultural erosion. If you are going to counter this arguement, you must do so on legal grounds. You cannot moralise or rationalise or sp

 

RP's story is an excellent parallel, because it just might make the merry band of "I'm not a racist, but" 's in this thread wake up to the clear as bloody day FACTS instead of waffling on about a bunch of arrogant and pretentious B*.

Maybe by putting yourselves in THEIR shoes via the very apt and FACTUALLY accurate analogy used by RP, you may find some shred of empathy for these people who "are at fault" who "don't even wash properly."

Oh my LORD! How Bleeding offensive! We give them money and beautiful white picket homes and they can't even WASH they are so unthankful. Who wouldn't want a white picket home? I know I would, and since EVERYONE must be like me, I suppose they would as well.

READ what Ender has just EXPLICITLY stated in his post. It is not asinine rhetoric, but plain as day FACT. As is RP's analogy.

I could not of summed it up better then they have. To be frank and rather un-family friendly for this forum, if you can't understand THOSE two posts, then this nation is as good as lost.

Book me two tickets to Sweden, I'm sick of consorting with Pigs writhing with joy in their own squalor.

 

Can we go to Holland instead. The cafes are better.

 

Being of Dutch descent, I can just move there if I want!

E_S

 

THE NOUN IS ABORIGINE, THE ADJECTIVE IS ABORIGINAL

Just a note; I've been recently taught that "Aboriginal person" is preferred to "Aborigine"

Carry on

 

Stin, I'd imagine that that is very much a personal preference thing... how about "indigenous Australian" or "official owner of the land we enjoy so much".

 

I'm not talking the preferred nomenclature. I'm talking about the grammatical necessity of using the word "Aborigine" in order to maintain that one is speaking correct English.

E_S

 

Ender_Sai, I also apologise If I get too emotional on the issue as well. I really get annoyed just because I don't agree with someone else's view, I get called a racist.

Racialism is defined as the following from 'The Collins Australian Pocket Dictionary': "A doctrine without scientific support, that claims the superiority of some one race". Let me state that I am not claiming superiority of the Caucasian race over the Australian Aboriginal race. I am stating that there is a problem within that society which IS backed by scientific support, in the means of statistical data, ie: high crime rate, alcoholism, etc... My arguments will also put forth double standards from the Government, which is in fact reverse-racism, but namely hypocracy.

If you look through all my posts in this thread, you will see that I NEVER claimed that Caucasians (or any other race) are better than Aborigines, the crux of the situation is - there are problems in that society - caused by both that society AND the Government's policies (not just this government, but all PREVIOUS Governments), what I was trying to get to (as in the other Aborigine thread I started) was to try and come up with realistic solutions to FIX those problems.

But before we could all get into solution mode, the finger pointing started...

 

Oh, sure, they had access to all the diseases that we had, and they had plenty of time to develop and immuno-response to the diseases and virus' we brought from Europe. And, I must draw attention to the fact that they even had a metabolism that was used to breaking down alcohol before we got here.

This is a part of life. We cannot turn around and say it is our fault that Aboriginals have poor health. That's like turning around and blaming the Africans for AIDS. Therefore, is it there fault we have AIDS now?

And, again, now one forces them to drink Alchohol. If they drink it, they must accept the responsibilities for their actions. Same as a white person. Their are clinics out there to help everyone with this addiction.

I love how you guys won't touch the genocide issue, because you know you can't justify it

I did. I said it sucked, but stop dwelling on the past. Work towards the future.

You don't touch the whole deaths in custody issue, because it can't be defended.

It can. Aborigines don't like to be kept in closed, small areas. That is why when many get houses given to them by the government they break the windows, rip down walls and pull up the floor boards. They like the outdoors.

And thanks for the lesson about PA; luckily for you I have already had experience with the indigenous population. Sorry!

When did you visit PA? Because in the last 5 years it has gotten absolutely disgusting up there. And what did you think when you saw it? "Look what white people did to these poor people"? Or did you think "These people have made their own choices in life and look what they turned out like?" I believe the later, and I would still believe that if they where white, black or green.

Rogue - That was a good parallel. But that's what happened in the past. And I fully accept that that is what happened, and it was awful for them. My posts are not what happened about the past, but what is happening in the present. In the present, the Chinese would be supplying us with houses, free or highly discounted education and health programs, larger welfare funds than another race would get, jobs available only for Australians and so on. We would also have access to clinics to treat our opium addictions. We would still be treated bad by a small percentage of the population when getting jobs, and that's pretty bad. And I do feel for the people out there that are trying to get jobs,but for the others who don't want to try, then that is their choice, but I won't be listening to them when they complain about certain things.

Out of curiousity, are their any Aboriginal posters?

 

I did. I said it sucked, but stop dwelling on the past. Work towards the future.

So, potentially, I could wipe out the lot of you, wait s few years, and say "It was in the past!" and get away with it?

The fact is, it would be wrong to move past it, seeing as how many of those affected by this act are still alive.

That's why people should not "just move on."

But hey, if you delay it for a while longerm those people will be dead, and then you can move on.

 

So, potentially, I could wipe out the lot of you, wait s few years, and say "It was in the past!" and get away with it?

The fact is, it would be wrong to move past it, seeing as how many of those affected by this act are still alive.

That's why people should not "just move on."

But hey, if you delay it for a while longerm those people will be dead, and then you can move on.

Hold on. No, it was never right. And it's a pity we can't go back and change it. However it's happened. Nothing can be done about that. What we need to do now is fix the problems of the past, not dwell on it. We need to stop saying "it was the colonists fault" and actually do something about fixing the problem. That is why I am saying we need to move on. Staying in the past isn't going to solve anything.

 

Hold on. No, it was never right. And it's a pity we can't go back and change it. However it's happened. Nothing can be done about that. What we need to do now is fix the problems of the past, not dwell on it. We need to stop saying "it was the colonists fault" and actually do something about fixing the problem. That is why I am saying we need to move on. Staying in the past isn't going to solve anything.

So my little scenario would be legitimate.

I kill a couple million Aussies, maybe take power, maybe run away, then years later say, "Hey, it was in the past, there's nothing you can do to correct it. It's sad, but we must move on."

Hell, by that logic, I could get away with murder. "I killed him your honor, but that was in the past, a whole 3 months, can;t we just move on?"


The cold fact is, those who were directly affected by this act are still alive. That makes all the difference.

 

I kill a couple million Aussies, maybe take power, maybe run away, then years later say, "Hey, it was in the past, there's nothing you can do to correct it. It's sad, but we must move on."

Hell, by that logic, I could get away with murder. "I killed him your honor, but that was in the past, a whole 3 months, can;t we just move on?"


The cold fact is, those who were directly affected by this act are still alive. That makes all the difference

So, what your saying is. "Who cares about fixing the problems, lets complain about what happened in the past?" Because you are arguing the exact opposite of me. I am saying we can't forget what happened, but we need to move on and fix our mistakes.

 

And how do you propose to do that?

 

If I knew the exact answer I would be in office wouldn't I? But it's what we are discussing here.

 

To be quite frank you wannabe Anakin, you SHOULD TONE down your rhetoric and look at the facts.

To be utterly sincere,you are wrong. Get over yourself.

 

If you want to whinge about the past then you go do that. I have said it many times, and I will continue to say it. It was wrong what happened. Do we all agree? Now, do we all agree that we should fix the problems that we caused? What is so hard about this?

 

That whilst you are purporting to acknowledge that the systematic decimation and extermination of an entire native species IS genocide and insidiously evil, you are trying to avoid responsibility for the same.

Imagine if members of Nazi Germany post-war refused to help the poverty stricken, dying and sorrow-filled Jews who at the time were literally rotting away to nothing in their despicable Ghetto's. What would you think of that citizen? Who could look on the work of his country and not feel utterly disgraced, utterly compelled to do anything and everything to help the poor bastards who have been felled by his nation's unthinking blows?

Because it is again, literally the same parallel. We used Alcohol, they used gas: but we both used posion, and we've polluted the hands of our nation for the rest of history.

We MUST reconcile this responsibility with our current Administration and society. Or be forever damned as an immoral, heartless State responsible for the extinction of our closest kin.

Fellow Man.

 

Learn from the past.

Live in the present.

Shape the future.

 

This is what I am advocating. Live in the Present and most importantly, shape the future.

My final point on this matter is...

Out of all my posts here, I have simply tried to point out the PROBLEMS, and be PROACTIVE with coming up with SOLUTIONS.

People like Ender_Sai, et al don't seem to grasp this point. They don't WAN'T to be proactive, and seem to want the Aborigine society to live in the STATUS QUO without fixing the problems I KEEP trying to point out.

 

That whilst you are purporting to acknowledge that the systematic decimation and extermination of an entire native species IS genocide and insidiously evil, you are trying to avoid responsibility for the same

I'm not trying to avoid the responsibilties at all, we just have a difference of opinion on what needs to be done.

Stinrab has just summed up what I've been trying to say for the last 10 posts