george just aint as hip as he used to be,hey it happens.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DarthAbdul-jabbar, Aug 13, 2002.

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  1. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    AL

    well, you certainly have a way with words...But allow me to retort:


    "Nothing in Attack of the Clones is based on photographing actual human beings in their natural environments"

    I would suppose your forgetting about the Meadow Picnic, the First Kiss, The Freighter, The Fireplace....

    And how do you expect George Lucas to create things like Coruscant, Tipoca City, and Geonosis. They don't exist in real life. He can't just go to NY and film scenes there. It's a fantasy world. It's in a GFFA.

    "Lucas has never been much of a visual stylist (at least, not since the days of THX 1138), but the characteristic cleanliness and contrast of his compositions ? the brilliant, antiseptic white of the stormtroopers' uniforms, the lustrous blue-black of Darth Vader's helmet ? have been abandoned here in favour of meaningless clutter."

    No, what he is doing is creating a contrast to the OT, by showing a much more stylized and complex universe. The Empire has done away with beauty and art in favor of form and function. And that's supposed to be a bad thing.

    " The vast, ovoid interior of the Galactic Senate, with its regimented rows of desks curving away into infinity, is yet again a splendid visual joke about the inefficacy of politics on a grand scale, though re-visiting the same visual metaphor from the first film just feels lazy"

    What location would you have chosen in place of the Senate room to show Palpatine's takeover of the galaxy? Lucas had to revisit the Senate Room because that's where politics happen. There's no point in creating another room or building just to avoid revisting certain themes. Do you have the same complaint on revisting Tatooine so many times? (On second thought you probably do.)

    "But the biggest problem with Attack of the Clones is that it lacks narrative coherence. Lucas' intrusive use of diagonal and horizontal optical wipes only reinforces the sense that this movie is all stitches and no fabric"

    What, you couldn't follow the story? It seemed pretty straightfoward to me. And please tell me you had a problem with all the wipes in ESB, another movie with 2 divergent story lines.

    "But we learn nothing about his life, and his relationship with Anakin adds up to little more than a lot of graceful tandem swordplay."

    What do you want to know about Obi-Wan's life? He's a Jedi. What he's doing in TPM and AOTC is his life. Again, I'm not sure if you saw all of the movie. We get to see at least 15 minutes of interaction between Anakin and Obi-Wan at the beginning of the movie, which is a lot in movie time. I certainly felt they had a strong bond. I don't need anvils to keep dropping to tell me that. And logically this story is not about Anakin and Obi-Wan. That's really more for the next one. This movie is about Anakin and Padme and the start of the Clone Wars. Nowhere has Lucas said this is about Anakin and Obi-Wan. It's only in your own mind.

    "Noone in the film has anything like an adult emotional life."

    No one in this film is a normal adult. Obi-Wan and the Jedi are fairly dispassionate people. Anakin is emotionally unstable. Padme is emotionally guarded. Palpatine is evil. Their emotions fit the character they are portraying.

    "Lucas' narrative's mystical long arc ? the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith, the Force and the Dark Side ? isn't foregrounded until Dooku is revealed to be the Sith."

    Lucas's mystical arc is about Anakin Skywalker, his rise, fall, and redemption. Everything revolves around that, and lies in the backround. There's a reason TPM was called what it was. Palpatine and the Sith are operating behind the curtain, so it is not necessary to show them constantly.

    "The whole Jedi concept ? a eugenic warrior caste guided by pure spirit (and midichlorians, lest I forget) and shaped by elite training ? is so troubling it calls the entire political dimension of Lucas' universe into question"

    "eugenics"- I really don't think this word means what you think it means. The clones are eu
  2. I_WAS_JUST_BANNED Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    star 1
    AL -

    I know this is your discussion with Pooja, but I feel I must contribute. CGI is a new art form. It is no different that post-modern expressionism was when the movement started. It's a new direction. You may reject it all you want. I am sure there are a number of people who lean further in the direction that you are taking than you do who would just as soon tells us the Film making not Art but Craft as well. In your opinion CGI is not Art. It is valid only to you as it is opinion and not fact. I'm pretty sure there is a large contingency of CGI artists who've spent their lives developing their artistic abilities who would even more convincingly refute you than I can. If you truly beleive that CGI is not art, so be it. That does NOT give you the right to tell Pooja or anyone else that they are wrong. I don't care what college art course or knowledge you base your opinion on, it is ultimately just that, opinion. Performance artists like Mumenschantz(spelling?) and others prepare their art much the same way that CGI artists do theirs.

    All art is crafted. It becomes art when it is exhibited. the CGI in AOTC was created, crafted, and then exhibited. Hence it is a part of the artform know as film. It is also an artform in and of itself.
  3. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I think AL's point is that calling CG "art" is like calling marble art or like calling oil-based paints art. CG is a tool like sound editing that supports the artistic medium of cinema.
  4. Marsguo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2000
    star 2
    AL wrote

    His desire to combine a faith in democracy with idealised systems of royalty, nobility and knighthood is almost comically American. .

    I don´t see where (blind) faith in democracy is portrayed in AOTC, with a dictator coming to power and starting a war.
  5. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    I hate discussing all this because it makes me feel like I'm actually fighting with someone, rather than sharing opinions... I don't want AL or jabbadabbado or anyone against me just because I like the prequels and think that CGI is an art form. I want to get along with everyone here because we all do like Star Wars... else we wouldn't be here.
    :p

    Anyway, I can't say ANYTHING AL has said is "wrong." It's his intake of information- and if he thinks that CGI isn't art, then that is what he thinks. If I think CGI is art, then that is what I think. There are no rights and wrongs here.
  6. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Right or wrong, at least AL dared to be interesting. :)
  7. I_WAS_JUST_BANNED Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    star 1
    His desire to combine a faith in democracy with idealised systems of royalty, nobility and knighthood is almost comically American. .

    George Lucas is American. I find nothing comical about it. I would tend to think that the ideal of faith in democracy would be American and don't see where this is either comical or a problem, unless of course you are Al-Quaida or a member of some other fanatic group bent on world domination fueled by a poorly misinterpreted and altered religious belief.

    But idealised systems of royalty, nobility and knighthood, would be inherently British. Great Britain still has a Royal Family, whether they weild any real power governmentally or not.

    Be careful who you lightheartedly poke fun at.
  8. airun Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    Well, i had different feelings about this.
    Of course GL had his "green-age" when he first made SW, and then after a long time, while his "artwork"'s evaluation was growing becaming a legend, he had to manage, wanting it or not, a completly new condition of enormous responsibility for all the odiens who were ecpecting from him something to consider at state of art...many things happened during these years in between...many sci-fi movies have been made, and many other stories have been introduced in our minds...
    And on the other side, propably he has a monumental marketing work around his films that makes much pressure to ensure certain incomes from his products. like the massive use of CGI that seems to be a winning card for a movie in contemporary cinematography.

    A very heavy weight for one man if you consider this view of things...
    I thought to myself, poor GL (even if he's not at all..)
    usually people have no idea of what's behind a big hard work like film making...

    -Another thing i thought watching the latest SW movies was, somthing about atmosphere that concern actors..
    i felt that people was very cold, not passionated for what they were doing...
    not involved in the story at all...
    i wonder if it is meant to be GS fault or actors themselves...
    something was missing since the long time ago and emotionally full old trilogy...

    (this is for GL if he will ever read it)Everytime i watch the scene of Luke with his sight far away at the two suns on his home planet Tatooine, and the music comes up to let us feel muntiple emotions about his life, his future and all the situation around him...well, i feel like i am in his clothes at that moment...

    P.S. i am not native, so please forgive my poor english
  9. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Puh-lease! To voice our opinions and mock our institutions and corporate-bought leaders is what impowers us as Americans and indivduals. To suggest that someone is a "fantatic" or terrorist for making light of things of these nature is truly sad. Ever read the Constitution of the United States? You might want to check out this little thing called the First Admendment.

    *Poke * Poke * Poke


    By the way, the British are all a bunch of tea-sipping panty-waists. My $.02.
  10. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Banned, you might want to sling those accusations of terrorism a little less casually.
  11. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4


    :)

    You'll never convince Al of anything.
    Al knows EVERYTHING, his opinions are infallible and he is NEVER wrong!
    It's an amazing phenomenon. ;)

    We're lucky to have him.
  12. Import_Jedi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    Banned, you might want to sling those accusations of terrorism a little less casually.


    Nah, he wants to be banned for reals. :p





    J/k [face_plain]
  13. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Ferewookie I find offence to that. Thats typical of an ignorant american.

    At least we realise we are part of the world and dont isolate ourselves from world events.

  14. Import_Jedi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    At least we realise we are part of the world and dont isolate ourselves from world events.


    Haha, true. We Yankees have an image problem by the rest of the world--and all we care about is getting a nice Nokia 3360 cell phone to replace our old ones. WOOPTY-DOO!!! :cool:


    [face_plain]
  15. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Thats typical of an ignorant american."

    I think ferel was joking.
  16. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    I_WAS_JUST_BANNED wrote:

    His desire to combine a faith in democracy with idealised systems of royalty, nobility and knighthood is almost comically American.

    George Lucas is American. I find nothing comical about it. I would tend to think that the ideal of faith in democracy would be American and don't see where this is either comical or a problem, unless of course you are Al-Quaida or a member of some other fanatic group bent on world domination fueled by a poorly misinterpreted and altered religious belief.

    Not being able to understand what you are reading is obviously a problem you have to deal with in the real world so I will not delve into already present scar tissue.

    Faith in democracy is one thing, combining that faith with idealised versions of royalty and nobility is another and such a troubling misconception is deeply rooted in American post-war cinema. This cliche applies to Star Wars at every level, and even in the OT, though in AOTC and TPM this is so far fetched that it is indeed ridiculous.

    But idealised systems of royalty, nobility and knighthood, would be inherently British. Great Britain still has a Royal Family, whether they weild any real power governentally or not.

    You can hardly argue that royalty and knighthood are idealised institutions in the UK, or in fact in any other European constitutional monarchy, at least not in this day and age. You are trying to come up with a point, it lacks any kind of basis in fact.

    Be careful who you lightheartedly poke fun at.

    Or you'll smoke me out of my cave of cynicism and disagreement?

    =====

    On another note, I am writing a reposte for that other fellow who replied to some of my earlier posts. The challenge has been taken on, my good man.
  17. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    Darthkarma wrote:

    You'll never convince Al of anything.
    Al knows EVERYTHING, his opinions are infallible and he is NEVER wrong!
    It's an amazing phenomenon.

    We're lucky to have him.


    Bullseye, my friend. As long as you can all understand that, we will all be much happier.
  18. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Sorry I apologise. But I do dislike it when I as an Englishman get insulted like that.
    And that is an ignorant comment.

    Doesn't seem like he was joking Darth Geist.

  19. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Damn, Abstract! You rock!

    That was one clean edged and precise disection of AL's post. Well played!
  20. I_WAS_JUST_BANNED Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2002
    star 1
    It's OK to poke fun at Post-War American Idealism through cinematic FANTASY, but god forbid you make just as snide a comment to a Brit, you might offend a British person. Ferelwookie was kidding. no need to apologize.

    AL I give up, at least you admit you are always right in your mind.

    And I wasn't slinging accusations of anything at anybody. I just tend to take offense when someone claims democracy is idealised and a cliche. And, AL it sounds as if you've got some deep scar tissue yourself pertaining to monarchies and how the United States handles things in general.

    I certainly hope that last little barb about being "smoked out of your cave" isn't derogatory towards, well, I won't go there but if it is... I have nothing left to say to you.
  21. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Well BANNED there was a need to apologise I over reacted and thats a problem I have.
  22. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    AL, my words cannot express how spot on your assessment of AOTC is.

    a sleeping giant has been re-awakened.

    nice.
  23. LUH-3417 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2001
    star 4
    Al I went to school too and I couldn't help for a while applying everything I learned in class to the arguments and discussions I had at every pub or social nook. I used technical terms, complex theories that while, not too complex for the average person to figure, it was still pretty specialized to my major and therefore irrelevent to most.
    Then I realized it was sort of annoying to others.
    Did ya see the bar scene in Good Will Hunting?
  24. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    LOL LUH-3417

    "Did ya see the bar scene in Good Will Hunting?"

    Did anyone in here see the bar scene in Good Will Hunting 2: Hunting Season? ;)

  25. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I sort of figured as soon as I read AL's post that it wouldn't take long before someone criticized him for being too eloquent and intelligent. It actually took nine hours, about eight hours longer than I expected.
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