Discussion George Lucas and the Mystery of the Treatment

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Darth_Corvus, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2010
    star 4
    Oookay everybody. We all know that Michael Arndt is writing the script now. We have a whole thread discussing it. But the more interesting part is what happened BEFORE that.
    Here is what we know from various interviews and announcements.
    • Lucas had given Disney 3 finished treatments for Episode VII - IX
    • The Original plan was for The Emperor to not appear in TESB or ROTJ but only in Episode VII and to die in EP IX on Hadd Abbadon which is orbited by two death stars. The Sequel trilogy would have had Luke's Sister(not Leia) show up. Also, no Death Star II in ROTJ and Han Solo dies. But one of the good guys who's not from the Big 3 comes back in the ST.
    • The writer of Lucas' biography saw treatments of 12 star wars movies(so if we assume that the OT is among these 12 we are one trilogy short)
    • EP VII was at one point called Shadows of the Sith(a very good one for the first appearance of Palps)

    This raises a couple of questions.
    1. Where is the other trilogy?
    Well it was probably intended to be a sequel. Why? Because the movies tell the story of the Skywalkers. With Anakin being born without a father to a non-Force sensitive woman, there is no point to make a prequel for TPM. Most likely it was merged with the ST.
    2. Were the 3 treatments given to Disney the original ST treatments?
    Most likely not. With the way TESB and ROTJ played out practically the entire sequel trilogy became obsolete.
    3. So what happend with the original idea?
    For me the most likely scenario is that the SST was rewritten with the ST cast. Instead of Ben passing on the torch for the grand children to fight some kind of post-Palpatine threat, Luke will pass the torch to Ben.
    4. So which version of Episode VII was titled Shadows of the Sith?
    Most likely the second. I doubt Lucas was thinking of making acceptable tie-in games for Ep VII BEFORE Ep V even had a finished script. So we will have Sith. Or something related to them anyway.
    5. Who's the good-guy who comes back?
    Well either Anakin gets resurrected or Lando. Really hope it is Lando.
    6. Is the current script any different from Lucas'?
    I certainly hope it is. But with everyone aging a lot, and the EU appearing and making Star Wars much cooler than the PT in all likelihood a lot was added to the original treatments.
    7. Will Han die?
    Since Harrison Ford really wanted Han to bite it in ROTJ I doubt the original plan changed much. But he is now among the biggest A list stars. He wouldn't be brought back to die in the first 10 minutes. He will have a lot to do in the movies.

    Anyway this is how I see it. I might be wrong in some of the cases. Perhaps all of them but seeing that these make the most sense logically, I highly doubt it. We of course cannot see the 6 old treatments that didn't get a movie(yet) but I hope you will all join me and help figure out most of what we are going to see two years from now.
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  2. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    I really doubt he just reused the old treatments. I'm certain the ones that these movies are based on will be entirely new ones. I of course wouldn't be surprised if he incorporated some of his original ideas into them though
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Lucas put a lot of recent work into those treatments, in large part to make the Star Wars property more attractive in a potential sale to Disney. I would imagine that what is in them is all pretty much new or at least a new take on some of his older ideas
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  4. Kev Snowmane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 2
    Remember, you can't trust anything that Lucas or his biographers say about how many of what treatments he has or had. His story has changed dozens of times.
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  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I trust that he put work into them to make the sale a better proposition, because that makes sense from a business perspective. The reality is, it's these future movies Disney wants.
  6. Maharishineo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2013
    star 1
    I'm under the impression that the 2nd and 3rd trilogy treatments were merged together to make the OT and the ST would be the 4th mixed in with elements of the 3rd that didn't make it into the original three movies. Essentially, there just wasn't enough actual content to create the original trilogy without dipping into the third treatment, so it went from 12 to 9 films. That's probably also why we got Anakin as a kid in Episode I rather than Lucas' original description of the PT. He didn't have enough content to make three movies out of Anakin turning to the dark side.
    Last edited by Maharishineo, Aug 4, 2013
  7. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    Shadows of the Sith would be a good title, it implies that although they are gone the Dark Side still looms over things. Obviously some sort of legacy will exist, maybe holocrons of Sidious or him as a Sith Ghost in the Exar Kun style.
  8. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2010
    star 4
    So yeah, the Sequel trilogy and the Sequel-Sequel Trilogy became the sequel trilogy. It's kinda a shame that we can't see the original treatments for the six post ROTJ movies. Would love to read em.
  9. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2010
    star 4
    True. That's why I want this thread to clear it up.
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  10. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2010
    star 4
    Why would someone need to make the sell of Lucasfilm a better proposition?
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  11. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    What I'd like to know is... exactly how faithful to Lucas's treatments will these movies remain? I certainly hope fairly close...
  12. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2010
    star 4
    Whatever was in the originally planned IX-XII trilogy. We might never know what it was originally but I doubt we will have an Enemy that isn't corporeal. Of course the Exar Kun shenanigans had Kyp Durron.
  13. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2010
    star 4
    After the PT? We are in a disagreement. But to answer your question: That depends when Lucas finished them. There wasn't much post-ROTJ EU back when the OT was done. And since all the games, comics and novels bring a looot of money to the franchise Disney would be stupid to retcon the EU.
  14. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    There can't be a split timeline? Like one that leads to the old EU, and one into the new one + the ST?
    (Having fun with the multi-posting btw?)
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  15. Bobatron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    I wish people would get over the Han Solo death thing. Just because Harrison Ford proposed it should have happened for the movie that was the conclusion of the story at that time doesn't mean it should happen, or that Harrison Ford still wants it to happen, or that it will automatically happen in sequels.
    I simply think Lucas got new ideas recently as he got more involved with The Clone Wars than he expected, and perhaps got inspired seeing how other series were being produced, along with becoming willing to sell the company and letting others handle it.
    Last edited by Bobatron, Aug 4, 2013
  16. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
    star 4
    Pretty sure Lucas compressed Eps 7-9 into ROTJ for the most part and truncated it severely. And at this point, most if not all of the elements from the original drafts of Star Wars have been used while altered in the six existing movies.

    However, one thing he did say, whether anything was truly written was that (paraphrasing Lucas in interviews);
    The prequels would be about the politics of the galaxy and how society evolves
    The original trilogy is about personal growth and redemption
    The sequel trilogy is about passing the torch and the blurred lines between good and evil and how morality and philosophy play into actual Jedi training.

    I keep getting this vibe that parallels X-Men First Class, where there are people throughout the galaxy with special powers but these powers have been shunned by society. When they gather to solve a major threat, they become exposed to defeat it. However, the difference in how to handle galactic threats creates moral dilemma within the Jedi ranks and creates a divide that builds into the conflicts for Episodes 8 and 9.
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  17. rocknroll41 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2013
    star 1
    This is how I understood it:

    1977: The original Star Wars becomes a major success and George Lucas says in a Rolling Stone Magazine interview that he plans to have 11 sequels (so 12 movies in total) because 1930's-40's serials were traditionally told in 12 parts. Lucas mentions that he was thinking about having some of them be spin-offs like an art-house spin-off about Wookies as well as one about Droids with very little dialogue in them. The prequel trilogy concept may have also existed around this time because Alan Dean Foster said in an interview many years later that before the first book was written, Lucas told him that he would like to do a story about Ben Kenobi and Luke's dad as young people.

    1980: Former producer Gary Kurtz said at the first Celebration in 1999 that by 1980, Lucas already had a plan for 12 films. The original Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back were already out by this time. Return of the Jedi was originally going to involve Luke only defeating Vader and Han was gonna die. Leia would not be Luke's sister. Then the sequel trilogy would have a slightly older Luke finding his sister (again, not Leia) and the two of them would defeat the Emperor. Then the final trilogy would involve Luke, now an old man, "passing the torch" to a new generation. Further evidence of this is supported by Mark Hamill saying in a 2004 interview that in 1975 Lucas asked him if he would return to "pass the torch to the next new hope" in a future Star Wars film that at the time was set for 2011.

    1988: In another interview, Lucas is asked about why Luke Skywalker didn't get a love interest in the end of the original trilogy and Lucas' response is "you haven't seen the last three yet." This implies that even though his original plans for the sequel trilogy were squished into Return of the Jedi, another trilogy was still being considered.

    1994: While beginning to write the prequels, Lucas decides to re-structure the entire narrative of the series to be about "the rise, fall and redemption of Darth Vader" and begins saying that because of this, there can be no new films taking place after Return of the Jedi and that the entire Star Wars saga will always only be 6 parts.

    2012: After sticking to the "story of Darth Vader, only 6 films" statement for nearly two decades, Lucas changes his mind while going into retirement and decides to give Disney a set of story treatments for a sequel trilogy on the eve of its purchase of Lucasfilm. Because it is very likely that the cast of the original trilogy will return as old people, it is safe to assume that this new set of story treatments that Disney now has were loosely based on Lucas' original plans for episodes 10-12. Disney has also confirmed that spin-offs will be made like Lucas had originally wanted back in 1977. So in a way, things are coming full circle.

    Long story short: Originally 12 films. Episodes 7-9 were all squished into Episode 6 and now Episodes 10-12 are the new Episodes 7-9.
    Last edited by rocknroll41, Aug 4, 2013
  18. Frank_TJ_Mackey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2000
    star 4
    come on guys......................Lucas never intended 12 Skywalker movies...

    He said numerous times that the "other" three were tangential to the saga, like a wookie movie or ewok movie.

    They were never part of the overall saga.

    I however think that we might see episode 10-11-12 movies one day....since Disney will be in the skywalker band-wagon for a long time.
  19. TheTwinSuns Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2013
    star 3
    Maybe... But I'm hoping for an Old Republic trilogy after this one.
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  20. Jedirush2112 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2013
    star 3
    Episode VII should be tied in to Episode VI. Perhaps Sidious was training another to take Vader's place, who now left alone directs his vengeance on Luke and the newly formed Jedi Order. Or perhaps with the Empire in disarray the galaxy has been taken over by a ruthless Hitler like General bent on Destroying the all elements of the Rebellion. Or maybe Pirates and Gangster have taken over the galaxy due to the vacuum left by the Empire. Regardless, it should be tied in to what transpired in Episode VI.
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  21. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
    star 4
    Having anything based on a Luke love interest is difficult to do with Luke's age. On one hand, he's probably too old top start a love interest-not too many people want to see a 60-year old begin a romance that will clearly not end up with children anyway. On the other hand, having a significant other already in place brings up a whole storyline that would never have been shown unless they have ANOTHER set of spin offs. (people who don't read the novels won't know who Mara Jade was).

    Both pirates and new dark lords can play into the whole story if the threat in episode 7 is simply a plot device to ignite the real threat in episodes 8 and 9.

    Kind of like the prequels, but done right this time. I really wouldn't mind if they took on some of the things that were supposed to be well done in the prequels but failed miserably...like a Jedi falling to the dark side for real rather than be a whiny baby not getting his way.
  22. Viceroy_Wagar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2004
    star 1
    Mas Amedda could lead the fractured Empire. I'm not big into the E.U. so not sure what happened to him. I assume he stayed tight with Palpatine. Maybe a Dark Side minion of sorts.
  23. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Lucas has a history of revamping and recycling older ideas, but you're probably right in that the sequel trilogy would be a combination of elements in the original 7-12 treatments. 9 was supposed to have the final confrontation with the Emperor, and it got moved to VI. I remember seeing an old interview of Mark Hamill from like the 80s where he said that Lucas told him Luke's love interest 'Hadn't been seen yet' and so forth, but then Lucas tends to change his mind over time.

    I wouldn't be surprised if what we get is basically a three way division of the story ideas from the original 7-12 treatments. Episode VII, VIII, and IX will probably lift a lot out of the 10-12 concepts, as a number of things in the original 7-9 treatments got moved over to Episode VI. Some plot threads will simply fall through (Luke's love interest/romance? Not going to see it on film if it carries over). Some ideas will probably be recycled... like a female lead/protagonist with the last name Skywalker (Apparently according to a number of interviews I've seen, originally the protagonist for 7-9 would have shifted to be Luke's sister, whom Luke trains and together they defeat the Emperor). I wouldn't be surprised (as Lucas apparently likes the idea of a female protagonist according to interviews) if that idea is recycled so that instead of being Luke's sister it's his daughter against some new threat.

    And I am still betting money on the name Nomi appearing somewhere in the ST.
    Last edited by stellarmagic01, Aug 4, 2013
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  24. Diggs Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think GL did,I think Michael Arndt did, from GL's basic ideas.
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  25. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    I always thought Lucas just had a 7-9 outline and the 10th, 11th and 12 movies were basically what became the Holiday special and the droids TV series. Just the side stuff but, I assumed, he didn't have a Skywalker saga past Ep. 9.
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