Discussion George Lucas and the Mystery of the Treatment

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Darth_Corvus, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    If it's a subplot to a story, it is important to the main plot, theoretically, as they are intrinsic to one another. Right? The Han and Leia romance in the ESB is probably the only bright spot in that film. Without it the story collapses under the weight of Vader's oppression. It's also a great arc for these two characters. I give much of the credit to Lucas and Kasdan. Ford and Fisher did a nice job, too. I haven't seen romance of that kind in a SW film since, and I would like them to get back to it in the ST. To clarify romance, I mean love, but I also the exciting and mysterious qualities ANH and TESB evoked in a general sense, too. The romance in ROTJ was lackluster, to say the least. Specifically the dialogue and acting. I find the PT romance difficult to watch on all levels. The one great quality of TPM is the absence of such.

    My one big question though...will we never see Wookiee or Gungan romance? Just think how powerful and moving that would be...O.K. Forget I wrote that.
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  2. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    TPM understands that this is Star Wars, not Star Romance.
  3. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    I think romance has its place. Rescuing a princess held captive by a henchman and an evil sorcerer is a romantic device. The Force is mysterious and romantic as well. Swashbuckling across a chasm and saving the Supreme Chancellor are great examples of adventure and romance.

    Romantic love was perfect for Han and Leia's character development. They're very different people, living in desperate circumstances. They are also ordinary, that is they're not force-users (at that point we didn't know about Leia) and falling in love is something most people can relate to and/or dream about. The mysterious and excitement associated with falling in love is a great thing for SW.

    To be fair, the romance between Anakin and Padme is different and should have been for very important reasons. Anakin wasn't mature enough to have a healthy, loving, erotic relationship with another person. He wanted control and he loved Padme for selfish reasons. We can understand why he felt this way, but that makes it no less a problem. It would have been best for him to wait to pursue that kind of relationship. So, in a way, the uncomfortable nature the viewer gets from watching all the awkward love scenes in AOTC and ROTS are appropriate on some level. Do you remember your first love? Were you mature enough to handle it? Some people experience possessiveness and all kinds of love distortions. Hey, look, I've reasoned with myself an explanation for actually liking the love scenes in the PT. That's pretty sweet.
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  4. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I think your points are fair and well made.

    Ultimately I don't think Lucas quite pulls off the subject of 'doomed love'... mainly because he doesn't give the Anakin/Padme romance that much dimension in terms of dialogue, acting and screen time (although it may feel like it has too much screen time). I actually think there are plenty of good scenes between the star crossed lovers... be it the picnic or prior to the arena battle. But the problem is of course that you have 2 actors who are playing the characters in a quite flat and very stylised way - which doesn't make for dynamic scenes (the picnic scene being the exception I think). I think AOTC also has a slight editing issue as well which doesn't help i.e. back and fourth to Anakin and Padme walking, talking and pondering. It would have made a big difference I think just to cut the 'sand gets everywhere' scene and then the movie could focus more on what the audience was more intersted in i.e. Obi-Wan's mission.
    Last edited by Darth PJ, Aug 19, 2013
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  5. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 3
    With the exception of the weird bad CGI riding scene of course...
    What irked me the most was that they missed the mark so completely with Anakin's downfall. If you remember the speeches of OB1 and Yoda about Vader, they tell Luke that Vader was seduced by the Dark Side, that it is quicker, easier, more seductive. Anakin himself states in AOTC that he wants to become all powerfull and that OB1 is holding him back. This echoes more the quick and easy path to the dark side than him only trying to save Padme(and screw my friends and all the lil younglings, they are evil) and after him noticing that the Dark Side betrayed him into killing her, staying a willing agent of evil... Makes...no...sense...
    Last edited by TtheForceHurts, Aug 19, 2013
  6. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    I was watching ROTS last night and I noticed Anakin was crying while looking out on to the lava flows, after he killed all the separatists. I never noticed that before and thought that it showed a lot of mixed emotion and confusion. He wasn't completely Dark.

    @TtForceHurts: I agree, but after Padme's death he blamed the Jedi for everything. I do think Anakin's character arc could have been written better.

    For instance, would it have been better to see Anakin conciously and covertly training with Sidious, keeping this training secret, like his relationship to Padme, instead of Sidious secretly training Anakin unconsciously? Anakin never realized he was under the tutelage of a Sith Lord when he killed Dooku, for instance.
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  7. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Well she goes down with that "There's still good in him" ship. Loyal to the end, but she's right of course



    Yancy
  8. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I persona
    I personally thought it made perfect sense. Anakin turned to the darkside because he was scared of losing Padme. Once he'd willingly turned to the darkside he was a Sith. It wasn't something he could just dip in and dip out of... well not until his son gave him something stronger to believe in circa 20 years later. Simples.
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  9. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Whilst seeing Anakin being trained by Sidious, a la Luke and Yoda, would have been 'cool' from a fan perspective... I'm not sure it would have enriched the story any more. Lucas was on a mission to portray Anakin as the fallen hero, someone we could feel sympathy for and not see as the villain of the piece. I think seeing Anakin willingly train with Sidious etc., whilst interesting, would have compromised that sympathetic character.
  10. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
    star 4
    Anakin's fall to the dark side was actually a decent enough concept but they could have made it deeper and made us really look into Anakin's angst.

    Here's a kid who always wanted to be a Jedi. He also wanted to free his mother from slavery. Then after he became a Jedi he had premonitions that his mother was in danger. However, the Jedi in their "no attachments" philosophy kept Anakin from returning to his mother despite his feeling that she's in danger. Low and behold when he does return, against the will of the council, she is dying and he wasn't there. He of course blames himself but ALSO blames the Jedi for keeping him from her. He sacrificed being with his mother to become a Jedi and the Jedi wouldn't even thank him by letting him help her.

    Palpatine uses this by creating the image in Anakin's mind that he would also lose Padme. Anakin's love is forbidden by the Jedi order so naturally he again blames the Jedi council for what he sees as inevitable. This along with what happened to his mom makes him more and more angry at the Jedi council. Finally someone comes along and offers Anakin the chance to reverse this trend and actually save Padme.

    this is essentially what did happen but they didn't tie in Shmi's death, Padme's apparent death, and blame Anakin placed on the Jedi for it...

    50-60 years later Luke learns about these events and tries to make changes in the Jedi order to allow attachment. They become out of control and these freedoms themselves also lead to the dark side.

    In the end, it means to make us wonder and debate which side of the concept is right and debate the idea of attachment vs no attachment and the middle ground. Hence what Lucas means when he said that Episodes 7-9 are about the moral standing of Jedi and knowing right from wrong and how those lines become blurred and gray.
  11. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    Why do so many people want all the things that make Star Wars, Star Wars removed.

    I don't think you guys like Star Wars.

    [face_devil]

    And it's a safe bet that these are the same people who would walk out of the theater and say "That sucked. Wasn't Star Warsy enough." if these things were in fact removed in the ST.

    [face_devil][face_devil]
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  12. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I actually thought the movies were quite explicit (too much so IMHO) in hammering the point home that Anakin felt that he didn't do enough to save his mother... and that he wouldn't make the same mistake again. He would do anything to save Padme no matter the price.
  13. JediKnightOB1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 5
    Now that Disney owns the franchise, I am sure that they will do everything in their powers to keep their investment from tanking. I am also sure that with Kathleen Kennedy at the helm all will be well. I am also sure that the writer has contact with George Lucas should he get into a bind. I am also sure the GL wants to see his stories viewed and talked about and made into more movies and spinoffs because he wants to see what others can do with his vision.
  14. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    I thought a lot of this was disconnected in the PT because Anakin was too young in Ep. I for the Padme/Anakin love story to be believable.
    StoneRiver likes this.
  15. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    Just when we were getting close to a lock, jedijax brings it all back to the point. But it feels we're still fighting here.

    The treatment mystery...hmm....
  16. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Yes - I think when viewing the prequels as a whole, showing Anakin leaving his mother at such a young age isn't as important to the overall story as George Lucas anticipated (although I totally respect that Lucas wanted to portray that onscreen). And whilst clearly Anakin leaving his mother has a monumental impact on him and the story, I think it could have been covered off with some exposition or 'visions' rather than have TPM pretty much dedicated to that facet of his story arc. Having an already teenage Padawan Anakin in TPM would have given the Anakin/Padme dynamic more time to breathe I think... As it is, and IMHO, TPM works more like a 2 hour preface to another 3 movies than it does as Episode I.

    So for this reason I think it's vital that Episode VII should throw us right into the middle of a new story (a la ANH) rather than be a mere set up for Ep VIII and IX. I don't want to see Luke setting up a new Jedi order, Leia establishing a new Senate or a new villain finding his feet... these type of things MUST be there and already established at the start of the story for the new saga to find its potential.
    Last edited by Darth PJ, Aug 20, 2013
  17. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 3
    I think we should be fine with that, after all they had 30 years to do so... I have the feeling that we will launch right into a big action sequence (like ANH/ROTS or the ST reboot or every bond movie. I also think that the time lapse between the PT episodes were to great. EPI was all setup, in EPII we should get the feeling that Ani and Obi have become the best of friends, but they are seperated for nearly the whole movie and we miss the big wars every SW fan has waited for decades (TCW was released years after the PT to make up for that). So basically we missed (in movie form) two very important events. The bonding between Obi and Ani when he takes him as a padawan and the clone wars in which they become heroes.

    Though there are also some years between EPIV-V-VI you don't have the feeling that you miss important events between the movies.
  18. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I thin
    I think you're right... events in the prequels seem more spread out, whilst events in the OT are more linear and less complex. I don't have an issue with that per se, as the prequels felt more epic in scope and more in keeping with the moniker of 'Star Wars'. However the downside to increased scope was that it required more exposition... exposition that took place on landing platforms and meeting rooms... which led to the films being overly 'talkie' in places.
  19. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    I think showing how Anakin was discovered and brought into the Jedi fold was important in Ep. I, and was done pretty well at that age. The attachment to his mother was fine, but would have been awkward had Anakin been 18 or so, although I would have liked to see that mirroring with ANH Luke's age. If TPM was left as is, it's actually Ep II that blows the love story. We should has seen them fall in love instead of the immediate "I've been in love with you since we met ten years ago, even though I was only 8 and we hardly spent any time together or anything...." that we got.
    Last edited by LunarMoth, Aug 20, 2013
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  20. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    It's a Space Opera. He held a torch for her since he was 9, it's not a big deal. This is not a modern psychodrama. This is Flash Gordon, this is The Sea Hawk. This is a Golden Age western.

    And hopefully - back on topic now - the treatment will reflect that.
  21. darthfettus2015 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 3
    .... its odd how people view things, for so long now I have detested the picnic scene despite generally being a PT admirer. I have always loved the story as a whole but have always felt there were some cringeworthy moments in which luckily detract from the whole too much...I know realise that I like the picnic scene, love the waterfalls but still hate the CGI riding scene which surely needs to come out at a later date, even if they just get a horse and paint it green! If that CGI had been better or Hayden had have been riding a real animal, if GL had not put himself under so much stress (remember he nearly had a heart attack making Star Wars way back) it could have been a great scene...i feel a detailed treatment and general GL back story coupled with a crafted script could be the golden ST ticket! As for JJ i just hope he is told to follow the SW style. As ESB and ROTJ shows i dont think a good director is vital for SW, the technicians, model makers and the story are...
    Last edited by darthfettus2015, Aug 20, 2013
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  22. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    If only... Yes... update the CGI in the 'riding scene', extend that scene to include a kiss, cut the entire 'sand gets everywhere' scene and AOTC is pretty bloody good in my opinion.
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  23. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I don't disagree with what you state... and I certainly don't think it wasn't done well. It's just that by including it in Episode I, and having Anakin be so much younger, it obviously means less time with grown up Anakin, less time with Hayden in role (some may see that as a positive), less Obi-Wan and Anakin time, less time with Anakin falling to the darkside etc.
    LunarMoth likes this.
  24. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    His fall to the dark side begins in Episode I IMO. His issues with attachment stemming from leaving his mother at such a young age is obvious but also his ultimate distrust of the Jedi is cemented in this Episode. After leaving his mother and traveling half way across the galaxy they completely reject him. Not a great way to establish a trusting foundation and all you have to do is look at young Anakin's face when Mace announces the council's judgment. That says it all.
    StoneRiver likes this.
  25. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    It absolutely does!
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