Discussion George Lucas and the Mystery of the Treatment

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Darth_Corvus, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Well yes I don't deny that... Little Anakin had enough going on to ensure he was susceptible to the dark side. I think the point was more that we don't even see him as a Jedi till AOTC, so his fall appears condensed into the events of ROTS. I personally feel Anakin going Sith should have been the finale of AOTC, with ROTS being 100% the fall of the Republic and the Jedi purge... but in order for that to work most of the events in AOTC would have needed to take place in Episode I - in my humble opinion of course (I still like what we got).
  2. Darth Chiznuk Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    It's only my opinion but I don't think it feels condensed at all. I don't think he needs to be a Jedi for his fall to be established in the first film and I think it serves as a great foundation for the next two films where we see his fears and attachment issues grow with the death of his mother and finally consume him in Episode III.
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  3. Sith-Mullet Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2003
    star 3
    George Lucas has passed the touch and his manuscripts to Kathleen Kennedy. She is in charge now.
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  4. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    In the famous leonard Maltin interview shown before the 1995 OT VHS boxset what Lucas says finally makes even more sense now than before the ST was announced. His words were: "I cut the story down and put the other two thirds on the shelf and said someday if I ever get the chance ill make that into movies" Two thirds.

    Even since 1977 and all on throughout the 80's whenever he was asked he would always give this same basic explanation. "I came up with a story that ended up way to big to fit into just one movie or even one trilogy of movies so I cut the story down and put the other two thirds on the shelf and said someday if I ever get the chance ill make that into movies".

    This has always been Lucas's favorite, go to explanation more so than anything else and its the one that has proven to be the most accurate at the end of the day without getting all into the geeky details of story ideas that "could have been" that no casual fan/movie goer would care about.

    Basically the story treatments Lucas wrought and handed to Disney were based on an idea he always toyed with throughout the years for having the SW Saga be made up of 3 trilogy's rather than 2.

    From wookipedia :

    Lucas is historically reported to have only a vague notion of what will happen in the three films of a sequel trilogy. He is quoted as saying "If the first trilogy (The backstory or what the public calls the PT) is social and political and talks about how society evolves, Star Wars (the core of the story or what the public calls the OT) is more about personal growth and self realization, and the third (The ST) deals with moral and philosophical problems. The sequel is about Jedi Knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."

    Now while personally I will always see the OS (Original Saga by George Lucas) as the true Star Wars I do like the idea that each generation gets a trilogy that is each essentially a different part of George Lucas's original idea of a Star Wars Saga made up of a "Trilogy of trilogys".

    Episodes 1,2 and 3: About social and political issues and how society evolves.

    Episodes 4,5 and 6: About personal growth and self realization.

    Episodes 7,8 and 9: About moral and philosophical problems and passing on what you have learned.
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Aug 25, 2013
  5. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    But by this logic, is the ST we're getting now not also a part of the OS as you say? Lucas wrote the story outlines, and he's even still involved as a consultant. It's only not "OS" to me when Lucas doesn't have such a heavy influence. Granted, his influence now isn't as strong as it was for the OT or PT, but regardless, these three new films wouldn't even be happening if not for HIS stories that he's given.
    Last edited by Seagoat, Aug 25, 2013
  6. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    When Anakin saw The Lord, he freaked out and became a Sith.
  7. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4


    Well thats all true and its nice but the films aren't going to be directed by Lucas so for me they can never be considered OS just S as in Saga but not The Original Saga by George Lucas.

    For many excellent examples of why this matters just click on the link in my sig. All the things you will see in that link exist and work so well and are so clever because Lucas was directing. When it comes to the ST its not George Lucas, its kids being allowed to use their imagination and play in the sandbox Lucas invented.

    Its just so funny to me because I remember on these very forms the whole big thing us SW defenders were forced to fight against back then was everybody used to be so insecure and fragile and nervous and upset and un-trusting of LFL because they were convinced (or just convinced each other) that the PT was this big bad "after thought" this big bad unplanned thing that was "never really supposed to happen" when in reality the only Trilogy that was ever the after thought, the big bad "add on" that was "contrived" and "never really supposed to happen" was the ST !

    Thats the real reason why we never got to have our "No bashing the films or Lucas" rule on here back when it was a very hot issue and there was a very real outcry for such a simple little basic rule on here. I truly believe that if we were allowed to have our rule back then the whole "Prequel bashers vs. defenders" problem (that still plagues the fanbase to this day) wouldn't have even happened or it would have definitely been nipped in the bud because this site (which was pretty much the premier fansite for SW on the internet back then) would have set an example that its not "hip and cool" to bash George Lucas and anything connected to him.

    There would have just been what there always has been, the people who like and appreciate star wars (SW fans) and the people who attack and make fun of SW fans --insecure angry bullys. Instead we got the cop-out "films not fans rule" which only empowered and enabled bashers. Essentially the rule means you can launch all out campaigns against the films we are all here for to your hearts content but if your a SW defender (a fan) you cant DARE say a word about the painfully, blatantly obvious bad/troll intentions and tactics of the attackers because then your violating the "films not fans rule". That rule automatically gave the bashers the moral high ground at the start of any debate and severely handicapped anyone who likes SW basically. I will say it until the day I die that that stupid rule was the worst thing that happened to this entire fanbase and we should have gotten our simple little "please no bashing" rule.

    This is why we were forced (for years and years and years) to defend against endless attacks from people who so obviously dont care about us or our history or what we love (SW and LFL) and just want to steer the pot.

    And because why...? Because "family friendly" and "bad acting" thats why. Another words its too much like Star Wars. Thats why we should be ashamed of ourselves. Thats why George Lucas is the worst person who ever lived. Oh yea and han shoots at the same time as Greedo. Thats why Star Wars fans are hassled and rudely dismissed and basically spit on everywhere we go.

    Congratulations.
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Aug 25, 2013
  8. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    That's been the worst part. :(
    [IMG]
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  9. PrincessKenobi New Films Manager of DOOM

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    Aug 12, 2000
    star 6
    Okay but by your own argument then these are the only movies that we can trust by him then in all of Star Wars: ANH, TPM, AOTC, and RoTS. Because he didn't direct ESB or RoTJ. I'm just trying to understand your logic based on your first sentence.
  10. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4

    The bottom line is that its basically common knowledge that Richard Marquand was for all intents and purposes the director in name only and much, much more of a co or assistant director of Episode 6. Everyone knows in their heart that Lucas was really the main director of that movie. Lets be real. That movie is and always was his baby, he always said that thats the one he wanted Episode 4 to be. Its his favorite of the OT. Thats the vision he was going for. The whole "immaculate reality" aspect works best for that one and TPM.

    And as for Irvin Kershner he was certainly great at getting performances out of the actors but thats about it. Harrison and Carrie and Marks faces and the way they deliver their lines can be attributed to kershner but everything else (as specially Yoda and the twist, the two keys of that movie) was Lucas's imagination, Lucas's vision, Lucas's final word. He was the Executive producer of Episode 5. Everybody was hired by him, everybody worked for him and everybody was superseded buy him. Its was Lucas's movie and it was his money.

    There were plenty of assistant directors for TPM as well. There are assistant directors on almost every movie. Dont mean ****. These two random, random, random old, out of touch half clueless men who were haired to pitch in and be part of the LFL team have been put up on this delusional fantasy pedestal for too long now and im not the only one who has been sick of it. Rick Mccallum did more for the Star Wars Saga (and the fanbase) than these two dead old men (no disrespect really) ever did.They all took orders from Lucas and worked to meet HIS vision and style. Get over it already.

    MODified: Profanity edit 2.0
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, Aug 25, 2013
  11. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    Did you seriously just edit out my edit? See you in 2 weeks.
  12. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I will be livid if Disney alters the treatments to make something that'll make more money (for example, adding Sith in order to have saber duels).
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  13. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    I would be irritated too. But how we would even be able to tell, I don't know. We have no idea where the treatments even come from, let alone what's in them. We can only make the barest speculation. And GL apparently likes to put in pulpish characters and events, along with other more philosophical ones. So no matter what's in the ST, we will probably need background materials to be able to tell what was what, from whom.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  14. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    I do have worries that it will go so far from the previous 6 movies that it won't feel legitimate. I hope GL gets to "referee" it like he says he will. If he does that, then I'll accept it.
  15. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I'm pretty sure that everyone involved will attempt to make Ep VII look and feel like a legitimate Star Wars movie. However, things have moved on, so we should expect these new movies to look and feel somewhat different too. I'm pretty sure the plot (and plot minutia) will be 99% Lucas, but I'd imagine that JJ will endeavour to make it a lot more snappy/punchy than both the PT and OT... and will attempt to have the dialogue/acting be more naturalistic (or more 'contemporary').
    Last edited by Darth PJ, Aug 26, 2013
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  16. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    The dialogue and acting in both the OT and PT was intentionally bad.
    [face_praying]
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  17. Diggs Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 4
    The dialogue and acting was not intentionally bad in either. No one uses bad acting or dialogue on purpose. There was a certain saturday morning serial tone to all of the movies for sure, but at no point did any of the writers or any of the directors purposefully aim for "bad". GL may have highlighted a 30s/ 40s feel as something he was going for, usually as a response to criticism, but deliberately bad? No.

    I think people are going who think GL has provided DIsney with some amazing Bible are going to be very disappointed. His basic ideas were taken and it was Arndt that produced the 40/50 page saga treatment everyone is developing. I'm convinced the GL in depth treatments talk is part Disney wanting to reassure shareholders and fans who want GL's stamp all over the new films. As others have mentioned, GL may have had a few meetings and hand overs with the new team, and I've no doubt he's given the ST his blessing and his initial vision, but I'm pretty sure that press aside, and the odd call here or there, he's done with things. Otherwise he wouldn't have sold LFL/ Star Wars, he would have just made the ST himself.

    I've also heard that the reason there is an ST is that when he first discussed the possibility of selling to Disney they insisted on new movies. GL went away, thrashed out some basic ideas (no doubt revisiting some of the previous thoughts he'd had) and they made the basis of the deal. I could be wrong though.
  18. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    The acting in the Star Wars movies thus far (with the exception of parts of ESB, I suspect) is made with the acting style of '30s/'40s serials in mind. It wasn't the first time someone made a work of art or entertainment with a certain specific but dated or quaint aesthetic in mind, and I suspect it won't be the last.
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Aug 26, 2013
  19. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    I think that argument is trying to retroactively make the bad acting not as bad.

    I've seen someone people maket he argument that Anakin, for example, should be awkward around Padme so that the "bad acting" actually works for the character and situations. But that's just a cover for the bad dialog and acting in AotC.
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  20. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    star 7
    fenton sluggo, are you planning to ever actually contribute anything positive or should we simply expect an endless series of EU & PT bashing and otherwise trying to aggravate people?
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, Aug 26, 2013
  21. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4

    Not liking something is one thing, not understanding something is another.
  22. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    And its another thing to pretend a thing is something it isn't. Maybe thats out there and I just haven't seen it (and if it is, please show me), but I have never seen anyone say they were acting "badly" to mimic 30/40 style serial actors before. Until/unless I see someone who acted that way or told others to act that way say so, I'd put that up there with "Anakin wouldn't know how to talk to girls, never mind romance one, so he acted awkward the dialog was bad on purpose".
    Last edited by sluggo1313., Aug 26, 2013
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  23. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4

    I could just repeat myself, but that would be pointless.
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  24. Sith-Mullet Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2003
    star 3
    Or adding One Direction as Jedi, ala NSync.
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  25. Darth Claire Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2012
    star 4
    Yes because we all know that right when Disney bought Marvel they forced Marvel to shove in Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber and Selina Gomez into all their films. Seriously though I'm getting sick and tired of all these "Oh no Disney is gunna Disneyfy it up!" fears. Calm down folks, they didn't do it with Marvel, I doubt they'll do it with Star Wars