ST George Lucas and the Mystery of the Treatment

No, I think Lucas and Kasdan made a good team. But Kasdan's questionable ideas weren't as bad as Lucas' questionable ideas, such as turning Leia into a strange forest hippy in ROTJ, Han into...well...nothing much, and teddy bears into Empire-crushing virtuosos.

That said, I think Lucas has an imagination that outstrips most people's. He just needs help writing and directing.

 

I still think anyone could use the force. Some are just more attuned to it. It could be the average person after years and years of training might be able to use the force to enhance reflexes to a small degree and possible be able to life small objects with the force. Nothing in the ST or OT conflicts with this.

The "Force Sensitive" people in the galaxy are the ones with the ability to use it in a way that is useful, and in most cases are able to benefit from it without any training.

Easy way to say it not just anyone can become a Jedi, but everyone is connected to the force, and with proper training would be able to use it to some degree.

Remember all living things have those blasted Midiclorians, it just some people have more. The people in the lets say top .0000000001% of the Galaxy are sensitive enough to them to become a Jedi.

 

Good thing Lucas owned it back then to make his own ideas a reality, or we wouldn't have the Return of the Jedi that we know and love.

 

But you're again making the same mistake that only what was filmed could have worked. Are you really saying the Ewoks are the only way to get that theme across, or that they were the best design to use? Or wrapping up Leia was the only way to go? Or that Han making a sacrifice might not have added some weight to the drama? I love ROTJ and George definitely steered them away from some ideas I didn't like the sound of. But we can't say another direction might not have worked better, as well or worse. I mean do you think they should have shot George's Jedi draft? It reads like the prequels but set in the OT era.

 

Nothing that Kasdan wanted to do to the characters supported the moral of the story. Lucas makes movies to teach lessons, not just for melodramatic purposes. The drama serves the moral. Kasdan helped organize the screenplay after story meetings, write new dialogue to support the story, but he was not making the story. He wasn't involved in the storytelling at all. What is the moral of the story if Luke turns evil, or if Han dies in Jabba's palace, or if the Ewoks don't help defeat the Empire, or if Luke leaves his friends at the end?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral

What is the moral of the story for the sequel trilogy? That's what matters more than the little details. The little details serve the moral. That's what makes drama have lasting impact.
Q:"Why is it that Star Wars is still just as strong as ever after 35 years?"
A:"If anybody knew what the answer was, they'd do it!" -Lucas

 

It makes sense that talent in the Force is a heritable trait, just like being good at maths is. But there are two issues here.

1. Heritable talent is highly complex. It's not like someone is born with a "mathematics gene" that you can get a count on with a blood sample--rather, it involves, genetic components, environmental components and components derived from genes interacting with the environment and each other

2. Quantification acts against the mystical, mythological function of Campbell-style myth-making. It's an explanation for something that needed none. Vader can tell Luke is strong in the Force and yet they're in two separate ships--no blood test required. It turns the Force from a metaphysical construct into a purely materialist-style entity. It's a radical departure thematically, since it runs counter to the non-rational, unspeakable, ineffable quality of the Force up to that point.

 

In the movies, Qui Gon tested his blood after he already knew Anakin was force sensitive. And they tested Anakin with an ESP test, so the midichlorian count was not the council's test. The midichlorian count only served Qui Gon's theory that he was the chosen one. There is no indication in the movies that midichlorian counts are used to recruit Jedi. I would assume force sensitives must show some ability in using the force, regardless of midichlorian count. Qui Gon was studying Anakin, like a scientist, because he already knew Anakin was unusually strong in the force.

I don't know what happened in the EU with midichlorians, but whatever it was, it was never canon.

 

Agree about the mystical aspect, Dion. Explanation was never needed and IMO it works against Anakin as a relatable character for many I think - though that said, that may be more down to the weak execution of the prophecy angle. The prophecy angle worked just great in Potter - though I suppose JK R built up to that aspect, didn't she?

 

the prophecy thing was stupid and generic and they should really stop using that in any story.

harry potter somewhat gets a pass because he at least survived a killing curse which would make anyone go "woah" but even then I don't like how Rowling dealt with it later on. it would have been cool if she played on it. like "oh prophecies are flawed not everything revolves around you" which she did a bit but the ending was so stupid with how it relates to the prophecy anyway.

 

He wasn't done revising the story yet when he finished those Jedi drafts.George's Jedi story was the final story on film. The final script by Kasdan reflects story changes made by George Lucas in meetings, notes, etc. Kasdan didn't come up with the final story, he just co-wrote the final script. And much of that dialogue was not even Kasdan's.

Lucas was done coming up with the ST story when he handed in the treatments for the ST, so that represents his final version of the ST story. That treatment is not the equivalent of the early drafts on the other films. It is the equivalent of the final story. They just needed scripts that told that story scene by scene and with completed dialogue.

In the ST process, Lucas got his story fully done before the script was started, because he wasn't going to be around.

 

KenW - I think you just need to accept the fact that even George's story would have changed during the development (especially as he could not trump everyone else and get his own way - a right he earned on the other movies but sold when he made the deal with Disney). By all means hate on the film if and when you've seen it, but looking for every angle you can to snipe away at the approach they have taken when you don't know a) the direction George would have taken things and b) the way JJ and co are progressing things can't be too rewarding. George has gone. He's not coming back. Wouldn't you rather hope the new film is good rather than crying foul out of blind loyalty?

 

Everything will be fine

 

Personally speaking, I think there’s several ‘goofy’ concepts that we appear to be getting in TFA... so it really comes down to which ‘goofy’ concepts one prefers. In terms of ‘blank canvases’ etc. my view is that was used as a sweeter to try and bring in a ‘good fit’ director for the job i.e. those that wouldn’t automatically say “ok I’m on-board whatever... it’s Star Wars”.. What I think we can be clear about (and agree on) is that at no point, in this early part of the development process, must they have had a Lucas based script that they were happy to proceed with. What they probably had was a script (at whatever stage) that they could proceed with, but not deemed to be immoveable/invaluable i.e. they were willing to scrap it in order to present a ‘blank canvas’ for whomever they wanted to bring in.

Without that notion of an inbuilt predilection for the force, I believe the OT and PT would be substantially weaker. It’s obviously a substantial and fundamental element of the narrative that runs throughout all 6 films... and is clearly being carried over into the ST. It’s really what makes the Skywalker connection in the films so powerful.

I think Kasdan is the better writer, but only when he’s working off other people’s stories/ideas IMO. Lucas is clearly best when he’s working with a couple of others to develop his ideas/concepts/plots/characters.[/quote]

 

1) Which is why those strong in the force need to train, to some degree.

2) I disagree. It may not be implicit in Campbell, but it sure is in many other examples... everything from King Arthur, The Iliad, Superman... to the story of Christ.

 

I fully take your point - I wasn't attempting to suggest that the ideas we'll be getting are automatically better - more that what matters is what the idea is, rather than who it came from. For example, Vader being Luke's father is genius no matter who it came from. Anakin being 9 in TPM is less than genius, no matter who it came from. Anakin turning because he fears losing Padme is genius, no matter who it came from. Padme losing the will to live is awful no matter who it came from. Essentially, we need to judge the idea, not assume one person will have the monopoly on good (or bad) ideas.

Also, KenW - without meaning to be disrespectful, I don't think you understand the development process. The treatment that kicks everything off can vary vastly from what we end up seeing on the screen. It is rarely sancrosanct. When you hear the words "go to script" you the closest you're ready to take the story you have forward at that point.

You're acting as if George's outlines would not nor should have been subject to the normal development process without having any idea as to what they contained or what was considered to be working or not working (or the way forward). Even if George had stayed involved, there's every chance his plans would have continued to evolve. His Jedi draft would most likely have been written off the back of his own outlines and treatments back in the day.

You very rarely write a draft with no outline or plan. So this idea that the outlines were gold ready to go is founded on nothing beyond your own unshakeable faith in George.

Had he not retired there's every likelihood the story would have evolved as much as it did during the development process of ANH, ESB and ROTJ.

The difference with the PT is, he was writing and really didn't have to take other views in to account. So I would argue the development process on the PT was not very rigorous at all (and it shows).

 

I hope you're being sarcastic about the Seal comment. I've worked with a lot of Navy Seals. Seal training weeds a lot of people out that are already at the cream of the crop. To use a very cheesy phrase, they truly are the "best of the best." I know guys that are light years more ready for seal training than me and they wouldn't make it either.

 

Had Abbadon would have been a good alternative to the Ewoks.

 

People are still caught up in this Myth of Authenticity. It's silly. I say if you don't want to see a Star Wars movie that isn't helmed by George, then don't. But to claim to claim ONLY George can continue the story is flying in the face of what George was actually trying to do.... to tap into generations of storytelling and myth. The Star Wars movies are part of a continuum that George was adding to. Others can add to it as well, now that George is retired and sold off the company and rights.

And the "moral" of the stories? Really? This isn't 1850 and I'm not 5. I don't need my stories to have a moral.

 

Every story has a moral, whether you like it or not, whether it's intended, or not.

 

In film you normally talk about theme rather the moral. I'm trying to pin down what the moral of the individual films is. Thoughts?

 

I think that is probably true. But then again, I tend to be a collaborative thinker.

George is best as an ideas man. Always has been.

He's a mediocre writer, generally speaking. And not much of a director. But I do think he's a helluva producer.

That is so very completely wrong.

Take a literature class. I'm not being snarky. Seriously. Take a literature class. Literature is WAY more complicated than that.

Even theme is an oversimplification in many ways. The fact is that culture an narrative interact in many complicated and sometimes not-so-obvious ways.

 

TP

 

dp

 

I'm really sorry. I'm just not used to the rule. Another site I'm on has the exact opposite rule (they want individual posts for separate replies), and I'm still trying to adjust. My apologies, yet again.