Discussion George Lucas and the Mystery of the Treatment

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Darth_Corvus, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 24, 2013
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    So, you pretty much think that they did a video game long before the film was even being made? That's not how the film industry works, folks. I still wonder why so many of you can't see the big picture.
  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    I don't think these are the same treatments at all.
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I doubt "Shadows of the Sith" is a thing, but regardless I think you might have confused it with Shadows of the Empire.

    Though, Hollywood does adapt plenty of pre-existing material. SotE wouldn't be a sequel anyway, however.

    Anyway... what's this about people talking about treatments as if they have any idea what is in them? As far as I'm aware, we have pretty well zero access to anything Lucas came up with, sequel-wise, back in the day. It's all speculation based on vague possible-clues.

    Also, people are throwing around the term "original." What one counts as "original" depends on which time period one counts as the "original" version of Star Wars. (Is it the Journal of the Whills (the first treatment/notes)? Is it the Adventures of Luke Starkiller? Is it the trilogy of trilogies? Is it the Tragedy of Darth Vader? etc. Star Wars, like the future, is always in motion.)
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Aug 5, 2013
  4. Joe Force Ghost

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    I'm betting that these treatments came from his time on the Clone Wars. He realized how fun it was in the SW galaxy, and started working on a ST. Then, he wanted to retire and decided to use the ST treatments to sell his company to Disney. Mind you, this is all pure speculation...
  5. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

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    The Emperor was supposed to die in Ep IX the new willain will be the old villain of X-XII. Well, most likely. I personally don't want the sith to have an actual physical presence but a bad guy/girl is needed with a corporeal form.
  6. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

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    Thanks a million
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  7. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

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    You are right. We know absolutely nothing of what's in those treatments except for a few self-contradictory interview answers and lots of different numbers regarding how much movies were planned. The objective is to figure out the most info from what we have. This will be a lot like chaos theory and historical linguistics. For RoTJ and TESB we have point A B and C as well. All the early drafts might have the setup for the sequels that were planned at that time.
  8. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Something I forgot to mention: there is one description Lucas gave, talking about presumably the trilogy of trilogies. I think he talked about it after ROTJ was out already, but the concept relates to that structure. Each trilogy would have a different feel. The OT was about personal development, the prequels would be about politics and how societies evolve and change, and the Sequel Trilogy would be about philosophical problems (presumably related to how to deal with the power one is given and/or how to tell which course of action is the best one, etc.) and "passing on what you have learned" (which is why so many people have thought Luke would be an Obi-Wan figure in any sequels)... and rebuilding the Republic. Now granted, that may have changed, depending on how much EU they are incorporating and how long after ROTJ the films will be set, but that was how Lucas was talking about it in the 80s (if I recall correctly). The Emperor was already gone, but the third trilogy would still function... somehow. So I tend to think people worrying over who "the big bad" would be, and some of those people suggesting the Emperor should come back because there are no other possibilities, should maybe broaden their horizons a little.

    EDIT: Here are some actual quotes from different time periods.


    "There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy takes place some twenty years before the second trilogy which includes Star Wars and Empire. About a year or two passes between each story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years... I won't say who survives and who doesn't, but if we are ever able to link together all three, you'd find the story progresses in a very logical fashion."
    - George Lucas to Alan Arnold, 1979, Once Upon A Galaxy *


    The last three episodes involve the rebuilding of the Republic.
    Only two of the main characters will appear in all nine films, & they are the robots, Artoo-Detoo & Threepio. Says Lucas: "In effect, the story will be told through their eyes."
    - Time Magazine, May 1980

    "There are six hours of events before Star Wars, & in those six hours the 'Other' becomes apparent, & after the third film the 'Other' becomes apparent quite a bit."
    - George Lucas to Rolling Stone, June 1980 **


    "It [the sequel trilogy] deals with the character that survives Star Wars III and his adventures." ***
    -George Lucas to Bantha Tracks, 1980


    The sequels, the three films that would follow Jedi, are considerably vaguer. Their main theme will be the necessity for moral choices & the wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong.
    - Time Magazine, May 1983

    But he has only a vague notion of what will happen in the three films of the sequel. In the sequel Luke would be a sixty-year-old Jedi knight. Han Solo and Leia would be together. The sequel focuses mainly on Luke, and Lucas says Mark Hamill will have first crack at the part if he is old enough. "If the first trilogy is social and political and talks about how society evolves," Lucas says, "Star Wars is more about personal growth and self realization, and the third deals with moral and philosophical problems... The sequel is about Jedi knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."
    - George Lucas to Denise Worrell, 1983, ICONS: Intimate Portraits

    * The "very logical fashion" here doesn't account for how the saga, during the production of the actual prequel films, was turned from loosely-integrated trilogies into a single hexalogy ostensibly focused on a single (now dead) character. How this will be bridged is anyone's guess.

    ** The Other here may not be Leia. When ESB was being made, Leia was not the Other; this appears to have only been changed in ROTJ. I don't think we know exactly when during preproduction this decision was made (yet - Rinzler's Making of ROTJ comes out this year and it may help clarify this). So this Sequel-Other might have been a totally different character.

    *** "Star Wars III" almost certainly refers to ROTJ, not Episode III (during production, the OT films were talked about in that way)
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Aug 5, 2013
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  9. jedilips Jedi Master

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Watched Empire last night and Yoda's "there is another" line jumped out at me more than usual... I know we all assume/know him to be talking about Leia after ROTJ, BUT wouldn't it be cool if Arndt ran with that and explored another Jedi out there somewhere and made that the source of the conflict in EPVII?

    That could tie back into Lucas's original treatment - but not necessarily Luke's sister.
    Last edited by jedilips, Aug 5, 2013
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  10. Echo-07 Force Ghost

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    Nov 9, 2012
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    I think the ST is a new set of treatments that incorporates ideas he scrapped. Of course there are new ideas too since he "ended" his orginal saga with ROTJ. BUT George always contended that the saga could go 9 or 12 episodes so I bet he had plenty of material in the bank.
  11. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I've had the same thought, but in ROTJ Ben sounds pretty sure that Yoda meant Leia. I still like the idea of The Other waiting out there, like the Second Foundation in Asimov's books.
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  12. StoneRiver Force Ghost

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    It would have been cool if it was possible, but they really did seal it up in RotJ:

    Luke: Yoda spoke of another.Obi-Wan: The other he spoke of is your twin sister.Luke: But I have no sister.Obi-Wan: [nods] Mm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did. If Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.Luke: [with sudden realization] Leia! Leia's my sister!

    It's in some book for failed computer game attempts or something of the like. They actually title it SW EPVII: Shadows of the Sith. Book came out in 2008.
    [IMG]
    Last edited by StoneRiver, Aug 5, 2013
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  13. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

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    We certainly don't need the Emperor for this one. I just skimmed the original new hope scripts. Luke was like 4 different characters. THE Starkiller, Luke, Starkiller, Deak Starkiller, Clieg Starkiller. Oh and the Emperor and the big bad sith Lord were two different characters. Odd. But I can see how a lot of ideas were recycled for later use. The name Utapau came back(Tatooine was named as such). Alderaan was used for a planet that looked just like Bespin which was the Imerial capital, and names like Valorum, Darklighter or Clieg. I'd bet half of the stuff we will see in Episode VII will be in past treatments for the OT.
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  14. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Huh. I've never heard of that before. Of course, the Lucasarts people who came up with it would be in exactly the same boat we all are/were: Fans who only have vague ideas of what the sequels would actually be (at that point it was "have been") about, but are still fascinated by the aura of mystery induced simply by numbering something "Episode VII." If that book came out in 2008, then when they were having the brainstorm that led to that title/idea, no one else was going to use the numbering system for anything official, so it probably seemed like a really awesome chance to take. Of course it later turned out that Lucas would turn out to use it anyway, even though he said otherwise for a long time.

    Lucas used a lot of that stuff for the Prequels. It would be fun to go through and find the stuff he didn't use, though it doesn't seem like there is very much, at least from the sources we know about.

    Actually, that's a cool idea for a thread. I'm going to start one in Saga.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Aug 5, 2013
  15. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

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    Just came across a Jagged Antilles. With Names being reused all the time I really think we will see a Starkiller in the ST. By the way there was one draft that BEGAN with the lightsaber battle of Obi-Wan and Anakin. Now I have one where Gunray dies at the beginning and Dooku is still alive when the Empire is formed. All the drafts for the prequels were way better to what we got in the end.
  16. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Yeah, Anakin's turn originally took place earlier in ROTS, pretty much when he kills Dooku, and he was present for the whole duel between Palpatine and Mace and his posse. The whole structure was different. And of course his motivations changed, with the political views that had seemingly been present at least since ESB (the same ones he talks about with Padme in the meadow in AOTC) being downplayed/played almost as relating to psychosis, and the "love" angle/Faustian Bargain being strengthened.

    Anyway.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Aug 5, 2013
  17. StoneRiver Force Ghost

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    That does indeed sound like a cool thread. See you there
  18. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

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    The Same treatment has Belsavis and a red headed Jedi Youngling: Mara. This is Awesome! I wish we would have seen this version.
  19. TheManFromMortis Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 19, 2012
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    _ _ _ _

    It would be interesting to finally see Lucas' original grand plan. He's changed his story so many time over the years that it gets a bit confusing at times. I wouldn't be surprised if we do get to see them sometime after the ST has been completed. I could imagine them being amongst bonus material (on disc or paper) with the ST box set or a complete saga box set once Fox's ownership of home video rights to Episodes II-VI has expired. I believe that Fox owns home video rights to ANH in perpetuity, so Disney would have to license that for any saga box set.
  20. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    That would be a fan version. I don't believe any of the official ones have EU to that extent. On that site I linked there are the official versions, but not all the things on the site are official. I think they're labeled.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Aug 5, 2013
  21. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    This is as close as I think we've come so far.

    Again, what does "original" mean in this context?

    (I'm with you on wanting to see all the notes, etc. That would be fascinating.)
  22. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

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    Damn you are right. It's a shame. It had so many good ideas.
  23. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

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    Hmm, couldn't find any drafts when the Emperor doesn't die. But even in the Last Draft of TESB The Ice planet had no name, Cloud City was on Hoth which had a surface, and Bespin was a normal green planet the crew stopped on the way from Hoth. Oh and Hadd Abadon was abandoned very late. There was a version where there was only one new death star and Luke aimed it at Hadd Abadon. Funny thing is, Han survived all of the scripts where the Emperor dies and the trilogy is wrapped up. Except for draft three AKA the most recent one, where the Falcon explodes. So that's most likely Han AND Chewie(Nothing indicates that it was Lando and Fish face in it).
  24. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I don't think there were any drafts where Han actually dies (I shoulda told you that there were also fan works on that site - sorry). I can't even remember where the Han dying "information" comes from. Is it Gary Kurtz? I guess if it was ever seriously discussed, we'll probably find out a bit about it in Making of ROTJ.

    Something to think about, too, is that there are only certain drafts available to read. I think all the versions of ANH are out there, but the other movies have fewer. So there are "versions" of those stories we don't know about, or only know parts of (like The Phantom Menace).
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Aug 5, 2013
  25. EHT New Films Manager

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    Let's try to avoid making statements like this... thanks.