Discussion George Lucas and the Mystery of the Treatment

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by Darth_Corvus, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 4
    That's true, but I didn't really get the sense that anyone got as angry about HP7 as some people (stupidly) did over the Prequels. I doubt JKR could have done something to "ruin their childhood" with the last book (I'm not even going to start on how ludicrous the people who say that about GL are).
  2. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Well there is an assumption that these characters won't appear in Rebels... but yes, I could certainly see Anakin explaining that he had a padawan during the Clone Wars, a padawan he left to live her life in exile... or who he hoped could become his Sith apprentice before Luke came on the scene??? As for Ventress... yes she's morally ambiguous by the end of season 5. I actually think she's a brilliant character with a clear and distinct character arc. She'd be great in a live action - as would Ashoka.
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  3. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 3
    Wow, never thought there were other adult SW fans who thought like me (or took the time to actually watch TCW):D
    I am not really a Prequel Basher (I sure loathe some decisions they made, but there is still good in them;)), but TCW feel to me more like Star Wars than all the Prequels. I guess this is mainly due to the dialogue and witty humor/banter that reflects more the OT's humor than the PT's.
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  4. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I
    I think TCW cartoon has a solid mix of both the tonality of the PT and that of the OT. So I wouldn't nesersarily say it's more like one than the other. It also has had, after 5 seasons, more time to spend on character backstories and relationships than the PT had... so you do get the opportunity to, for example, understand Anakin's motivations more... and the one thing the TCW manages to do above and beyond anything the prequels did is to make Anakin more likeable/more heroic - and I say that as a massive fan of the prequels. Again - yes TCW has more humour than the prequels (something the prequels sorely missed, but obviously something very difficult to work into the films given the narrative about betrayal and corruption)... but TCW also shows much of the political exposition too - and whilst not always thrilling, it's good to see this level of sophistication in what is, ostencibly, a cartoon aimed at kids. :)
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  5. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 3
    Have we seen the same movies? What I loathe about the PT is that there is too much SILLY humour in them, so silly that I would always cringe when watching them with newcomers. To be specific: Gungan antics/speech, 3PO/R2 (especially in the arena/droid factory), Battle Droids, Pit Droids, farting Eopie, that weird podrace announcer. Of course there is all that dreadful dialogue between Anakin and Padme as well (haircombing scene ROTS, Naboo hills). The humor and dialogue is far more subtle and intelligent in TCW and much more in league with the OT, even though TCW main audience is kids.
    I like the overall themes of the PT and the politics and schemes, but the screenplay and direction (wooden acting of otherwise great and talented actors) always take me out of the immersion and wonder that is Star Wars. In contrast, this makes me extremely hopeful and optimistic about the ST, since the ideas come from George (I love his vision) and the screenplay and direction are from Arndt and JJ (at which George is terrible).
  6. darthfettus2015 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 3
    it is widely accepted that GL is not an actors director- with GL the dialouge is either cheesy or wonderful i feel, some of Kenobis words throught the saga among my favorites in all film - but I always wonder if he is so woeful why was the first SW so successful - i am a GL loyalist but can accept his romantic scenes are always pants
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  7. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I don't want this to turn into a p*****g contest, but there is about 5 mins worth of humour (or attempted humour) in each of the prequels. I don't particularly like the humour in them (a couple of moments aside), but one does have to view it within context. I'm not particularly fond of the Anakin/Padme love scenes too... but neither was I particularly fond of any of the Han/Leia scenes in ROTJ. Again - viewed in context they make up a small percentage of what else is on screen...
  8. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    @darthfettus2015: what do you mean by "his romantic scenes are always pants"?
  9. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 3
    I would like you to elaborate which Han/leia scenes you mean in particular, because I am sure that none are in the near vicinity of the awkwardness of this mess:
    Anakin Skywalker: You are so... beautiful.
    Padmé: It's only because I'm so in love.
    Anakin Skywalker: No, it's because I'm so in love with you.
    Padmé: So love has blinded you?
    Anakin Skywalker: [laughs] Well, that's not exactly what I meant.
    Padmé: But it's probably true.
    This is not even 80's Soap-Opera worthy...
  10. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Perhaps it's the coke addled responces of Carrie Fisher or the flat and boring delivery of Harrison Ford, but EVERYTHING in ROTJ when they are on screen together and talking about "holding each other" or "not getting in the way" yadda yadda yadda... it really is incredibly cringe inducing... not only because it's poor dialogue and badly acted, but because it emasculates Han Solo and reduces Princess Leia to a mere female cliche. I think the love scenes in ROTJ are as bad (adimitedly they are fewer) as the ones in AOTC and ROTS.

    As much as I love the OT - I hope you're not going to slate everything in the prequels whilst viewing the OT as a leviathan of great acting and dialogue?
  11. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    You know, I always felt that scene with Anakin and Padme in RotS was supposed to be a kind of mock romantic banter thing.

    I mean, when Padme says "so love has blinded you", it's with faux-seriousness, not actual seriousness.

    I got the impression that GL was trying to parody the awkward dialogue of AotC's love scenes, but it backfired because people thought it was meant to be sincere.

    But yeah, overall that particular scene didn't bother me, because they're obviously taking the piss out of each other.
  12. darthfettus2015 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 3
    to eleborate in UK, to say something is pants, means not very good! SW has always been a mix of great acting and bad acting but then Alec, Ewan, Ian, Samuel L Jackson, Christopher Lee, PeterCushing et al did not have to do plot neccescary but otherwise awkward love scenes in a fantasy sci-fi adventure thats all about spaceships and laser battles
  13. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Yes I agree... and whilst recognising it' isn't BAFTA material, it's certainly harmless enough... and in my opinion actually designed to be a tad clunky and awkward. The only 'love' scene I actually think 'yes - that's not worked as good as it should' is the "sand gets everywhere" scene from AOTC... and in my opinion it's not necessarily the acting, dialogue or direction, but rather a case of too many Anakin/Padme scenes walking and talking. I don't think the film needed it.
  14. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I think both ESB and AOTC spent too much time on romance.
  15. Darth_Corvus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2010
    star 4
    OFFFTOPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC

    Funny thing is, I wouldn't mind an un-frozen Ahsoka as the lead.
    Younger than the big 3(AND Jaina)- check
    Female- check
    One of the hundreds of species who is NOT human- check

    Another thing. Visual Dictionaries are also G-canon(over clone wars)
    Which makes Darth Bane, Durge AND Ventress G-canon. The first has a holocron, the second supposedly died but is totally immortal and the third has an open faith.
    Same goes for Maul. I didn't really like that he survived or that he has an almost totally identical brother but I(and everyone else) have to face it. He was a lot more awesome than in the Phantom Menace
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  16. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Well you couldn't cut anything from ROTJ as it stands today - as it would look odd without anything to replace it. Same applies for the love scenes in AOTC. Point being is that in both films the love scenes aren't the strongest parts of the saga... and are largely (IMHO) written, performed and directed in a perfunctory manner.
  17. jedijax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2013
    star 4
    The whole idea about a lost apprentice, be they in isolation or carbonite somewhere hidden, is actually an interesting idea.

    I could see that concept, in some form, play out in Episode 8 rather than 7. It ties into the journey idea of a second chapter (like finding Yoda or Han meeting up with his old friend Lando).

    It also ties into the idea of the long lost sibling, but being an apprentice instead.

    this could be mentioned as a mystery person/character in episode 7 with not much relevance until episode 8 and could hold some sort of secret needed to unravel the mystery behind why/how the sith are returning
  18. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Saving Private Ryan, but let's never have anyone so cringeworthy and annoying as Matt Damon.
  19. maychild Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2013
    star 1
    You could theoretically cut out the whole Han/Leia romance and not affect the OT at all. As much as I love the Han/Leia romance, it's a subplot and not important to the story as a whole.

    I don't see how Han is "emasculated" in ROTJ. He's willing to step aside if Luke is the one Leia wants. I think that shows maturity and the realization that he loves Leia enough to let her go, not "emasculation."
  20. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4

    Well, I, for one, don't care for the whole thing, and would take the whole thing out. Han's courtship of Leia is obnoxious, and the relationship doesn't add anything to the story anyway. But that's just me.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  21. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    Because Han Solo is a shadow of his former self in ROTJ - he's gone from a sardonic and roguish scoundrel to someone who actually comes across quite boring and a bit wimpy. He doesn't do anything of significance in ROTJ... and I'm not surprised Ford wanted the character to die. I know it's a combination of stilted dialogue and wooden "I don't want to be here" acting that doesn't help the characterisation, but you'd have to be a brave person to say that you prefer the Han Solo in ROTJ to ANH and TESB... I say that as someone who likes the character and who likes ROTJ.
    Last edited by Darth PJ, Aug 18, 2013
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  22. maychild Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2013
    star 1
    Who doesn't care about anything but money and, when Luke says, "But they're gonna kill her!" (meaning Leia), replies, "Better her than me." It's not until Luke appeals to his greed that he decides to help rescue Leia.

    Saying "Better her than me" being a display of great courage, I guess.

    Aside from fight in the battle on Jabba's barge despite being blind, help defeat the Imperials on Endor, and grow as a character? He doesn't do anything of significance in the holy, sacred ESB, actually, but since it's the holy, sacred ESB and Han's a "sardonic and roguish scoundrel," we're not supposed to notice that.

    And the fact that his career as a leading man was taking off and he didn't want to go back to playing a supporting character in a juvenile, no-brainer sci-fi series (yes, SW was generally regarded as such back then; that was the case LONG before the prequels, despite what we're supposed to think) had absolutely nothing to do with it.

    Brave? I like the prequels and have been ripped to shreds for saying so for years.
    Last edited by maychild, Aug 18, 2013
  23. lord_eidolon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2004
    star 2
    As much as I loved TCW, I always found the re-use of lines of dialogue and comedy from the movies themselves as tedious and annoying. It just, I don't know. I know it's supposed to be a head nod or tip-of-the-hat to the films, but I just requires that little extra suspension of disbelief than usual.
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  24. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I agree. I would rather Star Wars to not be so self referential. Excepting the usual gags ("I've got a bad feeling about this"). That's the thing that majorly turned me off of the early post ROTJ EU. Hopefully Arndt avoids that crap in the script.
  25. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I can't really tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me... as the quotes work to undeline how he was more interesting in ANH.

    Re. Ford himself - Acting can be a quite selfish and egotistical profession (as in they want more lines, they like to be front and centre etc), so it speaks volumes that Ford felt the way he did , because after TESB he'd basically said his best lines and had his best scenes. Ford knew that.

    And for the record, I'm quite happy to admit that TESB is seen through rose tinted specs and is now used (like Bladerunner) as idiots shorthand to demonstrate one has 'taste'. I'm also happy to defend the prequels... I love all the Star Wars films and I don't have a problem stating that I thought Ford, and the character of Han Solo, was wasted in ROTJ.
    Mond and Immortiss like this.