George Lucas dialogue dilemma.

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Jokerisdaking, Jan 7, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jokerisdaking Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2005
    star 1
    In the commentary of ROTS GL say that once Padme learned what Anakin had done that even though she loved him she would never be able to live with him, yet on Mustafar, even though she is aware of his crimes, she asks if they could still just leave togethor and find some place to live totgethor in peace. Thoughts on this? I hate it when GL contradicts himself.
  2. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    I don't think he was contradicting himself at all. I think what he was saying is that Padme was prepared to live without Anakin because of what he had done, but because she still loved him, she was willing to try to reach out to him one last time. Even looking beyond that, it's easy to say that you can turn your back on someone you love, only to find that actually doing it is something else entirely.
  3. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i don't really see a contradiction either. it's what happens to a lot of people when they find out about crimes of their loved ones... they are horrified but at the same time it's still the person they are loving. it's an interesting dilemma.

    and it's well-solved in the padme character IMO.
  4. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Padme was smart as a fox, IMO. Kinda like the police detective trying to talk down the guy standing on the ledge of the 40th floor . . . . tell him what he wants to hear, then deal with the reality of the situation later.
  5. DarthFisto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2002
    star 4
    That's a good theory.
  6. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Padme was smart as a fox, IMO. Kinda like the police detective trying to talk down the guy standing on the ledge of the 40th floor . . . . tell him what he wants to hear, then deal with the reality of the situation later.


    Yeah, thats more like what I was thinking. Tell him what he wants to hear now, then dump him later. Maybe Anakin felt that too, and sensed she was lying, hence another reason for the choke.
  7. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i don't think she was lying. she was still trying to reach out to him - unlike obi-wan. she was sincere with her effort, hence the shock when he came out with his plan for world domination. hence saying 'you're breaking my heart'. why would she make all that up?

    the only thing i find strange is when she says, obi-wan wants to help you. that's technically not true, is it?
  8. JMN77 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2005
    star 3
    Yeah, isn't that why she's really rushing to get Anakin to leave as well??
    OBI'S COMING TO KILL HIM.... I've never understood why she says he wants to help.
    Help do what? Help relieve Anakin of his limbs, hair, lungs and flesh?
    It's confirmed even more (that she knows Obi will kill Ani) when he
    appears, she becomes extremely terrified.
    So yeah that statement is really out of left field.
  9. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    Help do what? Help relieve Anakin of his limbs, hair, lungs and flesh?

    :D
  10. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Obi-Wan was prepared to go and kill Anakin, but he also clearly DOES care about him. That was still obvious in Padme's apartment. He does try and talk to him before ever picking up a saber. I think if Anakin did listen to Padme, that Obi-Wan would indeed have tried to help him. If a fight could have been avoided, Obi-Wan would have taken the out. The Jedi do not kill out of vengenance or retribution.
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    you honestly think, given the circumstances, that obi-wan would have said, right, kid, sorry to see you in that state, i'm sure you didn't mean to have the entire jedi order run into your sabre... why don't we go home together... kind of scenario?
  12. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Of course not. It's not that simple. But if on Mustafar Anakin suddenly had a moment of realization and put down his saber, I don't think Obi-Wan would turn his back on him. Who knows what would happen after that, but I have a very hard time believing that Obi-Wan, Padme or Yoda would wash their hands of the Chosen One. The Clone Wars EU, if you subscribe to it, is filled with examples of forgiveness. Yoda tells Dooku that he and the Light side will always welcome him back, despite everything he's done, including engineering a war that killed far more people than Anakin did. Obi-Wan feels conflict in Asajj Ventress and does not stop believing she can come back to the Light, even when she appears to have no good in her. That is the Jedi way. It can never excuse or make up for all the people they've killed, but they can still come back and become a good person once more.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Obi-wan might've tried something else. He wouldn't exactly forgive Anakin, but he wouldn't be bound to killing him right then and there. He would at the very least seek his help in taking care of Palpatine. After that, Anakin would either be let go or submit himself to the courts.
  14. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    Jokerisdaking
    In the commentary of ROTS GL say that once Padme learned what Anakin had done that even though she loved him she would never be able to live with him, yet on Mustafar, even though she is aware of his crimes, she asks if they could still just leave togethor and find some place to live totgethor in peace. Thoughts on this? I hate it when GL contradicts himself.


    GL realizes this, but padme won't immediately realize the same thing. She *always* gives Anakin the benefit of the doubt in RotS. Only when she confronts Anakin and sees that he *is* a sith, does she start to back away from Anakin. There is no contradiction at all. She would never leave Anakin purely on rumour.
  15. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Obi-wan might've tried something else. He wouldn't exactly forgive Anakin, but he wouldn't be bound to killing him right then and there. He would at the very least seek his help in taking care of Palpatine. After that, Anakin would either be let go or submit himself to the courts.

    I can't speak to the naivete of Obi Wan,
    but if I learned that my apprentice
    had been living a lie to me for
    God knows how long in addition
    to the fact that his hands were
    still red with blood of the Jedi younglings,
    I don't think I could just trust him.

    Further, I don't understand how people
    say that Anakin was right to kill Dooku,
    Mace and Yoda were right to attempt to kill Sidious,
    but it wasn't right for Obi Wan to kill Anakin?

    Are you serious? Palpatine at least held to his ideals.
    Anakin turned his back on everything...
    And what does he do to redeem himself 23 years later?
    He turns his back on everything again.
    He had it coming.
  16. DroidGeneral Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2005
    star 4
    I guess it goes back to the theme "love conquers all". A theme previlant to Star Wars.
  17. mastersith69 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 1
    i dont know how lucas came to that answer because it doesnt make sense for padme to say obiwan wants to help because at no point does obiwan state he wants to help anakin, just simply gives the impression he has to kill anakin. also on the commentary i did notice that lucas said padme could never live with him i think that he said at the end when they were talking right before the duel. it might o just been bad voice editing because they edited all those guys voices on the commentary track.

    i think it would of been nice to hear only lucas talking the whole time unedited.
  18. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Are you serious?
    Ignoring the "tuning his back on everything again" comment... just because YOU think he had it coming does not mean that Obi-Wan would have killed Anakin if he stopped what he was doing and expressed regret at what he had done, if he abandoned the dark side. The Jedi do not kill defenseless people, no matter what they've done. And Obi-Wan loved Anakin. It's not like this would be easy by any stretch, but Obi-Wan would not kill him out of vengence.
  19. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    So where is the problem?
    Padmé does not truly believe and accept what Anakin has done until she goes to Mustafar and sees how he has changed for herself.
  20. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    dead on.

    so EU aside (which i don't read etc, so no clue) do we see ANY PT jedi EVER considering the notion of a sith turning back? i think we don't. so, by sheer likelihood it's impossible to think that obi-wan would have taken him back, warts and all.
    and by what he did (without jedi indoctrination and all) who in their right mind would just go, alright, you made a mistake. seriously, who would? who would trust him again?
    he knows no one could hence he must absolutely trust the new doctrine and have it work in his favour. no benefit of doubt.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I'll answer frared first. In the eu, a number of Jedi think it's possible to come back. Yoda thought he could bring back Dooku. Obi-wan thought he could bring back Ventress. Mace thought he could help Depa Bilba (sp). Nomi Sunrider and Cay Qel-Droma thought they could bring Ulic Qel-Droma back. Quinlan Vos did come back from the Dark Side, as did Aayla Secura. Vodo-Siosk Baas though that he could bring back Exar Kun. But in the films, none of the Jedi believe it's possible. Mostly based on past experiences with the Sith and those who didn't turn back, when the Jedi tried to help them.

    Obi-wan loves Anakin. He has compassion for his student, friend, brother. He wants to help him. He doesn't want to kill him, because he doesn't feel right about doing it. Dispite all that he has done, he doesn't want to do it. He refuses to kill Anakin at the end, because he will not kill an unarmed man who is helpless. But he cannot help him either. He has accepted that for all intents and purposes, that Anakin Skywalker is dead. Even before he sliced his limbs off. That is why he only refers to him as Darth Vader to both Luke and during the confrontation on the Death Star. Luke knows that his father was evil. But he still forgives him for his crimes. Even years later when he finally learns the full details of what happened from Artoo's recordings, Luke still forgives his father. Even when he sees his father choke his mother and sees the death of the Younglings.

    Padme cannot accept the notion that Anakin might have become a monster. So she goes to Mustafar for the sake of her family, to see if he has changed. She knows that Obi-wan isn't going to help him, but if she can get Anakin to stop, then maybe he could consider it. She's too attached to Anakin. And when she sees that he has changed, she wants nothing more to do with him.
  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    it's nice you took the time with this, sinister, but from what i see in the films, no jedi is brought back to light.

    again, obi-wan might love him to a tee and all, it has nothing to do with the indoctrination as presented in the films: destroy the sith we must. no negotiating, no nothing, we fight until they or we are dead. i don't see any jedi ever properly attempting to bring someone back or even just mention it. i think your point about obi-wan and how much he loved is among the longest debated in this forum. so.. i don't think you can claim any authority over what obi-wan feels.
    i don't think i debated that. i just discussed if obi-wan, in his right mind, would seriously consider turning anakin back. and i don't see how he, in his right mind, would.
    it would fly in the face of his hurt feelings and his integrity and much else he has to say, alright boy, you messed up but there's no reason i shouldn't trust you again.
    it'd make no sense. in that scene. in that situation. on mustafar.
  23. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Obi: "Don't do it!"

    Don't make me kill you.
    That is the only reading of that line that makes any sense to me...

    If Anakin had not have jumped, he would not have lost his limbs.
    But he was always going to jump wasn't he - that's the key.
    "Always on the move."
    So it doesn't really hinge on whether a Jedi has ever felt a Jedi can be saved from the Dark Side, for me, it hinges on whether a Sith would ever, in himself, be big enough to come back.
    And Anakin does, ultimately, come back.
    So anyone who believes and hopes he can, is right.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    With Maul, there is question as to whether he is a Sith or not. Neither Jedi recognizes him. With Dooku, Yoda fights him, but never tries to kill him or not. He just has to stop him from fleeing Geonosis. Same with Obi-wan. It's only Anakin who wants to make Dooku pay for his crimes. Mace doesn't go to kill Palpatine until the Dark Lord tricks him into doing it. Any rehabilitation could've occured while he was in custody.

    With Anakin, Obi-wan doesn't want to kill him. He never answers Padme when she asks. He tells Yoda that he won't do it. He talks to him instead of fighting. He even tries again before the duel ends.

    It's pretty clear. Obi-wan loves Anakin. We see it throughout AOTC and ROTS. In ANH, he talks fondly of the good man that he once was and not the monster he became. We have Lucas who says that they both know that a fight is coming, but they don't want to do it. And Stover who goes out of his way to describe Obi-wan's state of mind throughout the confrontation.

    We will never know how Obi-wan would've dealt with Anakin, if he had been willing to listen. There is no right or wrong way to bring someone back. You just do it. Luke only had the benefit of not being hated and Vader's guilt for his crimes. Otherwise he'd be toast.
  25. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i love the rhetoric behind don't do it. and the one behind, had anakin not jumped, he might still have his limbs.

    please!!!!!

    why is there no doubt as to anakin jumping but lots upon lots of doubt as to obi-wan wanting to kill him?

    why is there no doubt anakin would follow his new and exciting agenda and no doubt obi-wan had to also follow his jedi agenda? why is there no possibility for obi-wan to simply renounce his agenda and not fight? that's right, because he was stuck in it as well.

    anyone is right who hopes he can come back? because this is what happened? are you serious?

    you know, what this depends on? on empathy. has obi-wan ever felt quite as helpless and hopeless as anakin? if he has there's a chance he thinks he can come back.

    not on mustafar, not in that scene. there aren't even any wounds healing, let alone scars developing.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.