George Lucas dialogue dilemma.

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Jokerisdaking, Jan 7, 2006.

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  1. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    I'm not sure I follow, Frared...
    Maybe I wasn't clear in my post.

    Obi-Wan has been sent to Mustafar with the singular goal of killing Anakin Skywalker.
    He gets himself in a position to complete this mission.
    All he needs now is for Anakin to make the rash mistake of trying to jump that gap, and he will have done what he was sent to do.
    But what does he say?
    "Don't do it!"
    Do you think that is a warning? A threat?
    I don't - it is a plea. Listen to his voice.

    It makes sense to me that, when in a position which he himself recognises as a victory ensuring advantage, Obi could only tell Anakin not to try that jump because he does not want to kill him.
    I can't see another reason.
    Now whether you believe that this is because Obi's issue is with Anakin's death, or his own having to carry out the act of killing is pretty irrelavent to the fact that Obi offers Anakin mercy.
    If I "don't want to kill", then I "want to preserve", surely?
    "Allow to live", at the very least.

    Those are the facts - Obi is in a position to kill Anakin.
    He is there to kill Anakin.
    Yet he pleads with Anakin not to make him kill him.
    Why - just so that he can stop to work out an easier, less harrowing way to kill Anakin?
    "Don't do it - it's too hard for me this way. I've won. Surrender, and I'll take you back to the temple for death by lethal injection."

    The other point I was getting at was, that it doesn't matter - because Anakin did jump, and in the state he was in, was bound to jump.
    My craic about him "not losing his limbs", I think you may have misunderstood.
    I was merely pointing out the catch 22 situation.
    The only thing that would have prevented Anakin from jumping, would have been for him to be a more level-headed person
    And if he was more level-headed and rational, then he may not have turned to the Dark Side to begin with.
    So - hypothetically - the Anakin who would not make that jump, was the one who would not have been fighting Obi in the first place.
    If you catch my drift...

    Whether Obi wants to save Anakin or not, at that juncture, is irrelavent, because an Anakin who shows the calmness, clarity and focus NOT to jump, is one who possibly can be saved.
    Only the things which Obi may want to save Anakin from are the things which will make Anakin jump.
    Lacking that clarity is part of the reason Anakin needs saving in the first place.
    Does that make sense - it's kind of hard to express?

    That's all I was saying...

    :)
  2. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    well, you say it's all in anakin's hands and all i say is, it's in obi-wan's hands, too. and the way he pleads is guaranteed to make anakin jump. that is, however, just my opinion.

    it's check mate (never too solid with chess analogies, though [face_blush] )

    Whether Obi wants to save Anakin or not, at that juncture, is irrelavent, because an Anakin who shows the calmness, clarity and focus NOT to jump, is one who possibly can be saved.
    Only the things which Obi may want to save Anakin from are the things which will make Anakin jump.
    Lacking that clarity is part of the reason Anakin needs saving in the first place.
    Does that make sense - it's kind of hard to express?


    uh, okay. i think we are sort of on the same page...
    it looks like you make an interesting and twisted case here...
    and it's something i haven't thought of. not really in this way. but it's true. anakin's deeds aside, you simply wouldn't want to have him around much the way he is on mustafar.
  3. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Okay, I'm glad I made more sense that time.

    Do you think, at that point, there was anything Obi could have said or done to prevent Anakin jumping?
    Just curious...
    And what do you feel about Obi and Ani's dialogue before the fight begins - just bravado, a formality, or do you think Obi is actually trying to reason with Anakin?
  4. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    an easy challenge: :D

    no, they shouldn't have come to the point of having to fight at all. and there was probably nothing that could prevent it (althought that is saying the outcome is fixed and we are debating fixed outcomes elsewhere, right? ;) )

    the intervention should have happened before that. but there's no possible interventionist around. obi-wan is too involved. padme is too involved.

    the easy answer to having somebody calm down (which i think is the obvious objective to the whole thing) would be to ask questions. loads. not appear all threatening in the first place (preps he should have put down his saber visibly) and install the element of betrayal. all of this is horribly wrong.

    to answer your question: yes, he is trying to reason with him but he just never gets it right. can i go back to the empathy? it means that you go back to what it felt like for you to be in inner turmoil. and honestly, obi-wan has never properly been there, has he? and if he has (say with maul) it doesn't inform his style on mustafar. he is all accusations and lecture. this is never, i guarantee, never ever going to work. it will continue to make anakin even angrier.

    but then, the crux of all this: he has no serious agenda to calm him down. which is all the rage when you are trying to intervene.

    padme does her best but there is something about anakin which i think makes him always look for praise from obi-wan.

    it's just entirely and beautifully ****ed up.
  5. Jokerisdaking Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2005
    star 1
    If Kyp Durron, Revan and many other Jedi cangot off for thei crimes with just a slap on the wrist then why not Vader?
  6. TheCRZA Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    The Jedi do not kill defenseless people, no matter what they've done. And Obi-Wan loved Anakin. It's not like this would be easy by any stretch, but Obi-Wan would not kill him out of vengence.

    Mace was stopped mid-swing by Anakin while attempting
    to kill Palpatine. Palpatine was disarmed, and Mace
    assumed he was killing an defenseless man,
    and rationalized that he was too dangerous to be
    left alive.
    Whether Palpatine was defenseless or not can and has
    been debated ad naseum, but Mace THOUGHT he was defenseless,
    so you are incorrect there.

    Prior to that, Anakin, a fully trained Jedi Knight,
    kills Dooku who is completely defenseless
    and quite literally unarmed.

    So I don't see from where you are forming this opinion.

    because YOU think he had it coming does not mean that Obi-Wan would have killed Anakin if he stopped what he was doing and expressed regret at what he had done, if he abandoned the dark side

    But see, Anakin had been turning dark right under Obi Wan's nose since
    AOTC. And Ben had no idea. So not only can Kenobi not trust Anakin,
    he cannot trust his read of Anakin. How could he know that
    Anakin would turn back if he could not sense he turned in the first place.

    Even as he watched the holo of Anakin slaying Younglings,
    Obi Wan was blindsided.

    I think he has it coming because he has it coming.
    It's called taking responsibility for your actions,
    or taking your own medicine.

    EDIT: A followup question for you, your [face_plain]fullness:
    Do you think if Yoda had managed to disarm Palpatine
    that he would have picked up his saber for him for
    a fair fight, or went for the kill, as Mace attempted?

  7. YYZ-2112 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    This is pretty much how i see it as well.

    For my own part I think Anakin's ego wouldn't allow him to go back on his choices even if he wanted to. But if Anakin had surrendered his lightsaber and explained to Obi Wan the madness that carried him in his line of thinking, Obi Wan would have just taken him prisoner and/or convinced him to help defeat Sidious.

    Once order had been restored, I think the Jedi would have had their hands tied as to the fate of Anakin. Unless they could convince the courts that Anakin's actions were due to loss of control over one's own impulses, he likely would have had to be imprisoned in what I can only imagine to be somewhere isolated from other beings given the nature of a Jedi.

    Makes ya wonder what kind of a prison would be capable of holding a Jedi anyway. It would have to be something along the lines of the Australian colony except on a remote system rather than remote continent. Then again the energy binders seemed to do well enough on Obi Wan in Episode 2 and The chancellor in Episode 3.

    EDIT: hehe this could be a premice for an interesting video game; not nessesarily based on Anakin but some generic Jedi. That premice being something along the lines of 'Escape from New York' Jedi Style [face_skull]
  8. Jokerisdaking Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2005
    star 1
    As cruel as this sounds, what would Vader go to prison for? Yeshe has done heinous things but he has commited no actual crime. Palpatine had the authority to order the things he did, Vader was simply executing the will of the Chancellor, acts authorized by the Chancellor with power given to him by the senate. It always struck me as funny when the New Republic put peope on trial for war crimes, the rebellion was after all just a terrorist (still the good guys though) that toppled the government that they opposed. When Mon Mothma tried imperials that wasnt an excercise of the law it was mob rule and a show of the new regimes power.
  9. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    that's exactly the point. he hasn't done anything wrong. he has been the lawful citizen, hasn't he, protecting people from the rebellious and traitorous jedi.

    what's wrong is ethical. jedicide is ethically wrong. but they did pose a threat and were naturally perceived as a threat, just like the jedi perceived the sith as a threat to their happiness.

    obi-wan has no handling, no official handling at least, with anakin. he has the moral high ground, but that's about it. and i think some people place that above everything else. which is fine, but it's not the whole story.
  10. OBIWAN-JR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> And what do you feel about Obi and Ani's dialogue before the fight begins - just bravado, a formality, or do you think Obi is actually trying to reason with Anakin?

    I believe that this is Kenobi's way of trying to reason with Anakin.
    But that the way he goes about it, is a big part of why he can't reach Anakin.

    Unlike Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan hasn't yet learnt to make the emotional connection.

    We are shown scenes in ROTS between Anakin and Obi-Wan, that are comparable to scenes in TPM between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. The difference being the way that Qui-Gon often makes a physical connection to convey what he feels emotionally for Obi-Wan.

    Kenobi only tells Anakin what he really feels, when it is too late:


    -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, ROTS, 2005
    />

    What is really great, is to see Kenobi in ANH putting a caring hand on Luke's shoulder when it's needed, just as his Qui-Gon had done. I thought that was really nicely done by George.


    -JR :)/>/>
  11. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yeah, i think he is trying to reach out but he has no understanding of how it's done.

    he wil develop this during his 'stay' on tatooine, don't you think.
  12. YYZ-2112 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    That's a great observation. I suppose when the Jedi reclaimed order in the Republic the age old proverb would apply "History is written by those who survive to write it."
  13. yoshifett Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Because all of that is EU tripe.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    There is a difference. Palpatine isn't defenseless. He is too dangerous to be kept alive. He has control over the Senate and the Courts. He'd never get a fair and unbiased trial. He has Sith Lightning which he used to try and kill Mace. Dooku had lost his hand, thus he could not summon up the Lightning or do a Force shove. And he did not have control over the Senate and Courts. Also, Anakin only wants Palpatine alive because he can give him something. Less than a standard hour ago, Anakin was ready to kill Palpatine in cold blood. But then he is told that the devil can save his wife. So he will make a deal with the devil, to get something in return. He doesn't care about Palpatine. He only cares for what he can get out of him.

    Because he would have to have faith that the good person that he once was, was still in there. Just as Luke had faith in his father, before he could sense the good in him.

    Because he couldn't believe that Anakin could've done that. He didn't know of the Tusken Slaughter. Anakin hid that from him and thus he had no clue. If he had, he would've done more with Anakin to keep him on the straight and narrow.

    Vengence will never bring redemption. What does vengence solve. Nothing. It only leads to more revenge and for a Jedi, they do not use the Force for revenge. Yes, Anakin did have to take responsibility for his actions. But killing him isn't the answer. Getting him to turn back and to stand trial is the answer. Luke knew this as well, which is why he couldn't bring himself to kill his father. He believed in his ability to come back and he knew that a trial in the New Republic would be mroe preferable than outright execution.

    Yoda did knock Palpatine's saber out of his grip, but that was not the end of the fight. He was still trying to kill him and Palpatine was still using the Force to fight. An opponet must be totally unarmed and totally helpless. Palpatine was not helpless, but Dooku and Anakin were. When Luke refused to kill Vader, he was unarmed and totally defenseless at that moment. But unlike with Dooku, this Skywalker was not going to kill because someone tells him to do it.


    It's not a slap on the wrist. Luke let Kyp live because the boy was under the influence of a Sith Lord. And because he had to live with his mistakes. To that end the only way he can atone for his crimes was to become a Jedi Knight and go out there to redeem himself. Had Vader lived, he would've done this exact thing. He would go out and make up for his crimes, by becoming a Jedi
  15. TrueJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    I think she was baiting him into a trap to kill him and rule the new empire with Obi Wan. Or maybe not.

    Actually it's a hard issue to define. GL is all over the place with his story telling that we really don't know what is what.

    When GL said that the Dark Side is more powerful than the Force, that really did it for me. It's the first time in any storytelling where the author insists that evil outweighs good. Thanks, but no thanks.
  16. yoshifett Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    You're oversimplifying. Lucas did not say that evil outweighs good. You've twisted the statement to make it mean that. What it seems to me that Lucas was saying is that the dark side of the force offers more power to cause destruction than the light side. I think that makes a whole lot of sense. Remember, the Jedi, who serve the force, use it only for knowledge and defense. So why would that be more powerful in a literal, physical sense? Lucas was certainly not implying that the dark side was "better" than the light side, just that it's better if you want to kill people and destroy things.
  17. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i think the dark side is sort of more for this life and individuals and the light side more suited to the collective and transcendence. more like apples and oranges.
  18. TrueJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    It's a very simple and direct statement and I think you're working overtime to make it mean something it does not. Either way, in suggesting that evil can overwhelm good, GL makes a claim that no other popular author has ever done and that is, evil is more powerful than good when used as directed. Let's just say GL had a bad day when he made that comment and hope that much like his later statements, he changes his mind, again.
  19. farrellg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    It's a very simple and direct statement and I think you're working overtime to make it mean something it does not. Either way, in suggesting that evil can overwhelm good, GL makes a claim that no other popular author has ever done and that is, evil is more powerful than good when used as directed. Let's just say GL had a bad day when he made that comment and hope that much like his later statements, he changes his mind, again.

    Evil being more powerful than good is a wonderful plot device. It makes the villains seem that much more powerful and menacing. I don't think Lucas would retract the statement because the films have always portrayed the dark side's superiority. ROTJ gives us the best example when we see how easily the Emperor electrocutes Luke.
  20. anakin_luver Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2005
    star 5

    Padme knows that Obi-Wan will do what he must to save the Republic, but she also knows that if Anakin stops what he is doing right now, then Obi-Wan will help him. So in a way, she is telling the truth, but she is also trying to convince Anakin to do the right thing. Come back, and saying that his friend/mentor is still on his side is a good move. Too bad it didn't work.

    I don't believe Padme was lying in the scene at all. She knows what he has done is horirble, but if he's willing to stop now she is willing to have him. She loves him uncontrollably, and if there's any hope he can be the same Anakin she fell in love with, then she's going to hold on to that hope.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    "The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying 'I'm not going to let this happen again.' We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful?it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    Lucas is saying that evil does have a lot of benefits, but there's a price to them. That price is your soul. The fact that to gain power is to go to the Dark Side. It is the only way Anakin can keep his loved ones safe. Which ties into his greedy nature. It's easy as he says to become evil, because it's the quick and easy way to getting what you want. Being good requires one to not want power. Which Obi-wan has managed to do throughout his life. He wants to do good, but he wants to do it the Jedi way. Anakin wants to do good, but he is willing to do things that a Jedi does not dare to do.

    Jedi do not want or crave power. The Sith do. Through the Dark Side of the Force, one can do things with far greater ease. But the Jedi believe that you can do these things without becoming evil, thus Yoda says that the Dark Side is not stronger. For the Jedi, true power lies in infinite knowledge and wisdom. For the Sith, true power lies in the ability to rule the galaxy.

    Besides, Yoda doesn't want to tempt Luke with the Dark Side. That's like telling an alcholic that it's okay to have a beer, while he's trying to recover from being a full fledged drunk.
  22. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i don't thinkshe was lying either. i was just saying, did she honestly believe obi-wan wanted to help?
    and the other thing: would obi-wan have taken him back? i don't think so. none of his actions say that to me.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Padme might be able to get Obi-wan to change his mind. Besides, if she said that he's coming to kill him, Anakin's gonna go after him to pick a fight first. And Obi-wan still believes in the prophecy. So if Anakin were to come back, he would take him back on that provision. As well as turning himself over to the courts.
  24. BothofUs Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2003
    star 4
    I'd just like to butt in and point out that Anakin never admits to killing younglings.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Yeah, but Anakin's attitude confirms that he has gone to the Dark Side and joined the Sith. Thus confirming what Obi-wan told her. She realizes and knows deep in her heart that Obi-wan would never lie. She's known him and the other Jedi long enough to know that they'd never make a grab for power. She just had to see it for herself.
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