CT George Lucas' disappointment in OT special effects: warranted or not?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth Eddie, Dec 3, 2013.

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  1. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

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    The 2004 release seemed to be building up to the release of Revenge of the Sith. Some of the changes, like Palpatine in ESB and Anakin in ROTJ show that they intentionally took some cues from ROTS, which was pretty far along in production at this point. They waited until 2006 to release the OOT on DVD, after the Saga had already been completed.

    The 2011 release seemed a bit out of place, as there was no big landmarks surrounding it. Then again, the ST was not even a realistic idea at this point in time, so you can't blame them. Then a few years later, the combo packs are released, which actually bring back DVDs. Pretty weird; you'd think it'd be the other way around.

    Though in general, Lucasfilm generally takes its time when bringing Star Wars to the newest home video formats. Sometimes it works to build interest, sometimes, it just feels overdue.
    Last edited by SlashMan, Dec 4, 2013
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  2. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Lucas can do with his stuff whatever he wants, just like you can do with your stuff whatever you want. That's what property means. What does that have to do with ego?

    Because the movies were released on DVD then.

    Because the movies were released on BD then.

    Probably not, as the movies are no longer Lucas', so they're no longer his stuff, so he can no longer do with them as he wants. That's what property means.
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Dec 4, 2013
  3. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Not to mention the DVD market should be almost non existent. Although I don't believe Disney would forbid Lucas from doing more changes if he wants to. No studio does that.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Dec 4, 2013
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  4. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    You mean because it's likely all going to be streaming-based?
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I doubt there will be any changes to match up to the ST, given that the latter takes place at a later time and will be a mixture of the OT and PT effects. Besides, Lucas sold his films and I don't think he's going to do anymore changes.

    He made the changes in 04 and 11 because in the former, he was tying the films together with many of those changes. With the Blu Ray changes he was adapting to the new format and the few changes that he made, was mostly minor in nature. Yoda was only done for consistency's sake in the PT and Vader's "NOOO" was to tie it to ROTS. It wasn't about money because people will still buy them regardless.

    Because he ready to put it out on DVD.

    He waited til 2011 because he was satisfied with the Blu Ray format and was putting his final stamp on it. The fact is a lot of studios re-release films every few years. Take "Friday The 13th". The Paramount films were released two a year, then in a crappy boxset, then disc one of the boxset with the first two films was put out in a special in 07 and again in 08, before getting a new boxset with all kinds of features when the 09 film was released. Now it's out on Blu Ray. Meanwhile, New Line Cinema released each film in their run as soon as they were available on DVD. Then in a boxset and finally three-in-one set. That's just the nature of the biz.
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  6. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Wasn't the OOT release in 2006 the 1993 version of the movies though?
    At least according to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases
    Time compressing or something.

    Sure, they are Lucas' movies but all of these changes over the years are ridiculous. One definitive version from here on out would be nice with the possible inclusion of the original versions of each movie.
    VHS to DVD to Blu-Ray to whatever is next, streaming is fine. VHS with a couple different versions to DVD's with a couple different versions to Blu-Ray with 1 thing so far is getting old.

    I look forward to the day the Star Wars saga is done for good 1-9 or 1-12 or more which will probably happen so that we can end with the tinkering. Unless Lucas expects us to believe that the Spin-offs will give us more reasons to continue the tinkering.
  7. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    I mean that by then Blu-ray should have completely replaced DVD, just like the latter did with VHS and LaserDisc.
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  8. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 23, 2013
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    I love when you guys talk about consistency and tying the movies together, yet you fail to mention you now have a CGI Yoda in 3 movies, and a puppet movies in the other 2 movies! You have a CGI Jabba in TPM and ANH and Puppet Jabba in ROTJ. That is essentially 2 different visuals in the movies??? But he adds a 'Noooo' to ROTJ and creepy Anakin as a force ghost and now all of the sudden the trilogies are tied together better? [face_laugh] Maybe if Lucas wanted to delete something from the movies, he should take out that big smooch bro & sis gave each other on Hoth in ESB. [face_laugh]

    Are you a Lucasfilm representative here? [face_thinking] Do they email you their talking points everyday? :p
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  9. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    To answer the OP, yes, I definitely feel GL was warranted in wanting to improve the Special Effects in the OT. While the films were obviously groundbreaking for their time, they had not held up effects wise, and by '97 (when the SE's came out), it was time for some improvements to be made.

    The one thing that I wanted to see changed in the OT was the Ben/Vader lightsaber battle on the DS; even as a kid, I could tell the lightsaber effects were off & looked quite fake in that scene. Ironically, these are the effects that weren't changed much (possibly because they couldn't change them):

    When I went to see the ANH SE in January 1997, I expected to see the lightsabers improved in that duel scene so that they looked perfect. However, they didn't look that much better than they had in '77. The effects were slightly better in the 2004 DVD's & the 2011 Blu-rays, but they're still not as perfect as the lightsaber effects in the other films...
    Last edited by Blur, Dec 4, 2013
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  10. Mr. K Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    That's ridiculous. They PM him. [face_clown]

    The work on the blu ray seem pretty good to me. To be honest, and this is probably not the majority opinion, I thought the OT lightsabers looked more realistic than they did in the PT. The PT sabers looked fake to me because they were almost too perfect, if that makes any sense. You can over-polish these kinds of things. Recent Spielberg sci-fi falls into this category for me (Minority Report, AI, War of the Worlds)- they're just polished so production perfect that it looks like an effect. You are correct to point out that there is an inconsistency in saber appearance from film to film and it is noticeable.
    Last edited by Mr. K, Dec 4, 2013
  11. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

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    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    :rolleyes: :mad:[face_shame_on_you]
    Changing a small thing for consistency is entirely different from changing massive scenes for the same reason. So far the actually BIGGEST change was the CGI-ing of Yoda in TPM, which gives me HOPE that they will eventually get around to doing that in ESB and ROTJ (oh Force yes please! I beg you!:D ) and maybe even CGI-ing Jabba in ROTJ as well. A simple "noooo" was easy to do, not major. It's like you don't understand films. [face_laugh] You certainly don't understand creator's ownership. And the Anakin Force Ghost was brilliant and actually the biggest single thing that ties the Saga altogether. Utterly brilliant.
    Are you a RedLetterMedia representative? Do they email you their opinions every day?
    Last edited by Jarren_Lee-Saber, Dec 4, 2013
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  12. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    Shhh! Don't blow my cover! [face_laugh]

    All the changes you want to the OT, I'm starting to wonder if you ARE George Lucas? ;)[face_laugh]

    Give you give us some plot points on Episode 7, cause JJ is being too secret! :p
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  13. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    To add to my first post: Conceptually, I don't think there's anything wrong with a film director going back to make improvements on a movie that he/she isn't happy with. The issues here are not that Lucas made changes that improved the films (which even naysayers have to admit was the case with at least some of the changes), but that so many other changes were not only unecessary but detracted from the movies: i.e., Greedo s. first, the extremely unecessary changes made to some of the cantina aliens (which truly messed up an iconic sequence), the truly execrable Yuzzum song scene which replaced the great Sy Snootles scene in ROTJ, etc.

    Also adding to my last post, I actually have issues with two lightsaber scenes in ANH:

    - The 'saber looks horrible in the Falcon scene when Luke is practicing with the remote. It didn't look much better in the '97 version. In the 2004 version, it looked worse than it had before since the 'saber looked either green or white, instead of the correct blue color. Can't remember how much (if at all) this was improved in the 2011 Blu-ray.

    - In the Ben & Vader duel scene, Ben's 'saber is very obviously "fizzing out". Back in the early days of the Internet (mid '90's), I remember the conjecture by some fans was that the 'saber needed to be recharged; another opinion was that Vader saying "Your powers are weak, old man" literally meant that Ben was losing his hold on the Force, therby resulting in the 'saber losing power. Obviously both of these theories were false, and it was just a case of bad effects. Again, this scene was slightly improved in subsequent releases of the film, notably the 2011 Blu-ray.

    The problem with these types of effects limitations is that they really take me out of the film.

    That all being said, many of the other changes to the OT (in the SE & beyond) were huge improvements:

    -The X-wing fighter deployment & attack on the DS in ANH - amazing.

    -The Falcon's quick departure from Docking Bay 94.

    - The additional views of the Wampa in the ice cave.

    - The scene correcting the Wampa's arm when it knocks out Luke in the beginning of ESB.

    - The additional scene in ROTJ with Oola & Jabba; this was so seamless (since it was filmed using the same actress) that if you hadn't known the scene wasn't there originally, you wouldn't have known the difference..

    Side-note: Re: the sabers, IMHO the effects in the original (and subsequent) versions of ESB & ROTJ were fine. IMHO, the saber colors were more vivid here than in ANH.
    Last edited by Blur, Dec 5, 2013
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  14. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

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    Good god! I wish! If I was, then not only would you be seeing the 3D re-releases, but you'd be getting an extended edition to the entire Saga with additional formerly deleted footage to make each film edge up to the 3 hour mark, plus the replacing of all puppetry and stop motion with CGI, plus massive additional graphics to the space battles to make them look almost as big as ROTS battle over Coruscant, plus........*trails off*
    Oh and I, not JJ, would be directing the ST.
    Last edited by Jarren_Lee-Saber, Dec 5, 2013
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  15. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :p
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  16. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Not to him, and that's what matters in the end.
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  17. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Hey George, stop speaking in the 3rd person when you express your opinion about the movies you created! :p
  18. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Lacking arguments?
  19. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Just having fun. :p Our debate was going in circles, so we can agree to disagree. :)
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  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Yes, they were. They were the result of Lucas being pestered by the fans who wanted them and being a bit generous, he opted to give those a release. But he didn't spend a lot of money on doing a conversion of the Laserdisc masters. The 07 boxsets were just standard reissues done to pass the time until he was ready for a full boxset. Back when Blu-Ray and HD-DVD were first being developed, Lucas said that he was waiting to see who won the format war, before committing the Saga to it. Even though the outcome was already determined before 2011.


    Like I said, I don't see a need to tinker because of the ST. The new characters won't be able to fit into the existing narrative since the ST will be a new story that is only related to the old one more standalone in a sense, than the PT to the OT. Think of it more like "Star Trek" to "Star Trek: The Next Generation". TOS era characters did carry over to TNG, but the latter series stood on its own in spite of that.

    Yoda being CGI in TPM isn't so much about the CGI and more about appearance wise. The TPM puppet looked quite different from the puppet in TESB and ROTJ, as well as the CGI model in AOTC and ROTS. By replacing it with the CGI version from AOTC and ROTS, you have Yoda's facial features looking consistent with each other and with the OT puppet. Likewise with Jabba in TPM, ANH and ROTJ represent his aging over the years.

    He also added in Coruscant and Naboo. He made Cloud City consistent with Coruscant and Mos Eisley with Mos Espa. He had Ian playing Palpatine and Morrison voicing Boba. Thus there's a greater consistency.

    I think part of the problem here is that ILM is too busy trying to have the tint of the blade match up to the way it looks in other scene. Thus it comes across green instead of blue.

    I think the problem here is that ILM is still having trouble rotoscoping the whole thing without losing the original image. The methods for creating the blades in 1976-77 is much different from the other films and this could be a sticking point.
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  21. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    That's better.
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  22. Mr. K Moderator Emeritus

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    I used to argue and debate relentlessly on this board back in the day. I'm just too lazy now. :)

    Back to topic- the effects as it stands in the OT still stand up fairly well, especially with the SE. There are moments that do date the film (jerky stop-motion tauntauns and the like) but it's the enhancements to things like the lightsabers and Cloud City that really do benefit to the film. I'm still not pleased with some of the scene re-do's like that stupid Jabba dance party, but there are technical examples in abundance where these movies are in much better shape than perhaps they were in the 70's/80's.
    Last edited by Mr. K, Dec 5, 2013
  23. TX-20 Force Ghost

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    Jun 21, 2013
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    I like the idea that until the 1997 special edition, George Lucas had no idea how Darth Vader got from Cloud City to his Super Star Destroyer.

    GL: "What a glaring plot-hole. Way to ruin the movie, Kersh!"
  24. Blur Force Ghost

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    ESB is the film where I either like or am indifferent to the effects/story changes:

    -Expanded scene in the Wampa Ice cave: Great; it was nice to see a little more here.

    - Expanded scenery & added ships/scenes in Cloud City: Excellent, I always liked CC and wanted to see more of this in the film. The Cloud car is one of my favorite OT ships.

    - Changing Boba Fett's voice: I hated this when it was first done in the 2004 DVD, but now have gotten used to it & now don't care either way.

    -Luke's yell as he falls after the duel with DV: Never minded this; it makes sense that someone falling to their death would yell, and doesn't change my opinion of Luke's bravery here - i.e., he would rather die than join DV.

    -Showing DV's shuttle: Unecessary, but it was interesting to see the Shuttle in ESB, and provided a link between ESB & ROTJ. However, the film is obviously just as good without this scene.

    I guess this just shows that ESB was a perfect film to begin with...
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  25. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Ah but its not what us fans want, its what our glorious Creator wants.
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