main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

George Lucas IS Orson Welles: Could AOTC be Citizen Kane?

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by Vonn, Aug 3, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Draculas_guest

    Draculas_guest Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2001
    i find the dialogue to be an attempt at classic literature AND saturday morning serial writing styles. unfortunately, i think it fails at being either, and ends up sounding silly, contrived, clumsy and juvenile.

    Thankyou DrEvazan for actually saying something worthwhile.
    When you say that you think that the dialogue is attempting both, I take it that you are just referring to AOTC specifically, and not the OT. Do you think that the dialogue in AOTC should have been more of a classic literature style to fit the romance then. I think maybe thats a problem with AOTC, not just the dialogue being a mish-mash of styles, but maybe the story is a little un-focused. i.e. in one moment its trying to be too much of a comic book, and in the next moment its trying to be a heartfelt love story, and the next moment its trying to insert political drama and tension into the plot. One minute George Lucas is telling us that the PT is supposed to be a much darker set of films, and the next he is telling us AOTC is supposed to be in the vein of a saturday morning cartoon. I think that maybe AOTC suffers a slight lack of identity over what its trying to be.
     
  2. SWfan2002

    SWfan2002 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2002
    i.e. in one moment its trying to be too much of a comic book, and in the next moment its trying to be a heartfelt love story, and the next moment its trying to insert political drama and tension into the plot.

    I understand what you're saying, but here's another way of looking at it-- these differences add a freshness to scene after scene of AOTC. You get one scene that's comic book"ish", and then a cut to a heartfelt love scene, and when you're just about tired of that, you get more comic book"ish" stuff, or perhaps even a political drama scene. This way you don't really get tired because the story is moving in several different ways, and being told in several different styles.
     
  3. rsterling78

    rsterling78 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    i find the dialogue to be an attempt at classic literature AND saturday morning serial writing styles. unfortunately, i think it fails at being either, and ends up sounding silly, contrived, clumsy and juvenile.

    Thankyou DrEvazan for actually saying something worthwhile.


    Thank you for proving my point, gentlemen. Bashers (yes, I'm going to call you that because that's what you are) don't want to discuss the positives and negatives of the film. Rather, they want to "frame the debate" in terms of how bad the film is.

    In contrast, here is the thoughtful analysis you demand but seem unable to produce:

    The fireplace scene dialog was awful, but most of the remaining dialog was well-written, Obi-Wan's lines in particular.

    The exchange between Obi-Wan and Jango was excellent.

    The argument that the film is laden with B-movie dialog is absurd. Those who say Lucas made a botched attempt to ape Shakespeare with regard to selected lines have a point.

    [face_plain]

     
  4. The_Abstract

    The_Abstract Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2002
    So, we seem to have found a topic in this thread.

    Unfortunately it's a redundant one. What the hell does Lucas have to do with Shakespeare? Is this the only pre-20th century writer who we can think of who wrote in a grandiose style. Actually, from what I've read in most dialogue speculation, Lucas is going for a pre-Shakespearan effect with the dialogue. The dialogue is more in line with Arthurian romance than anything else. Anakin is courting Padme, not trying to hook-up with her at some loud, obnoxious sports bar. That's just where Jedi go for drinks.

    Of course Star Wars isn't all about that. It's also a place for, as DrEvazan put quite nicely "silly, contrived, clumsy and juvenile" dialogue. This is a proud tradition, dating back to when Luke first utters the immortal line "But I was going to Toshii station to pick up some power converters!" I can post some more to refresh anyone's memory. Most of the dialogue that Lucas writes is more of average-joe type response to the situations the characters find themselves in. They are rather ridiculous. People jumping out of windows and cars, secret clone army conspiracies, murderous nomadic tribes, and fighting, fighting, fighting! Personally, If I held a lightsaber in my hand, I'd be talking **** non-stop, just like they do in the movies.

    One of the main themes that runs through all movies is unexpected and unforeseen circumstances popping up. Darth Sidious corrupting everything, finding Anakin, finding Jar Jar, clone armies, forbidden love, death of Anakin's mother, hyperdrive failings, finding out Darth Vader's your father, finding out you have a twin sister. Sometimes what people say in response to those situations doesn't have a lot of thought behind it. It's not stupidity, it's realism-how many times in our own lives have we kicked ourselves for thinking of the right thing to say too late. Lucas is holding up a mirror to our own society, so expect a mix of good and bad. I think Lucas has always done a great job of mixing drama and irony in his scripts to ensure that we don't take things too seriously.

    Unfortunately, some have grown weary of this particular style, and cannot enjoy the PT for what it is. They would rather drop some 90's style back-and-forth Seinfeldian dialogue, whose sole purpose is to deconstruct events, not foward a story, mixed with realistic heart thumping drama, something "edgy" and "original" like Memento or The Sopranos.

    Another condition Star Wars dialogue must meet is to be emotional to the nth degree, running the gamut from joy to pain. Apparently a lot of fans want Star Wars to be some sort of transcendant spiritual therapy session, leading them to a path of higher enlightenment and spiritual cleansing as they learn the ways of the Jedi and the true nature of the SW galaxy. Gee, If that's what you want, I suggest checking out books like the Bible, Koran, Hindu scripture, and Buddhist teachings. They might have more what your looking for there.

    Expectations have been built so high over the last 15 years that it would be impossible for Lucas to satisfy everyone. We are all unique little snowflakes who just happen to share the story of a galaxy far, far away. We might have been thinking about SW every day of our lives since we first became affixed to this wonderfully simple story, but George Lucas moved on for a while before deciding to come back. I hope he did change a little during that time, but I don't believe it's affected his overall vision of what Star Wars is supposed to be about. A story of hope and redemption and love, told at a brisk pace, with wink-and-a-nod dialogue, and a little bit of magic and swordplay thrown in for fun. This is why I love both the Prequels and Originals, and I will continue to defend them until those naysayers leave and find something else to make them happy.


     
  5. DrEvazan

    DrEvazan Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2002
    i have to frame the debate in a negative way because that was my overall reaction to the film. i also think that there are plenty of examples of B-movie dialogue in the film...

    "This party's over."

    "Obi-Wan: Just relax, concentrate.
    Anakin: What about Padme?
    Obi-Wan: She seems to be on top of things."

    "Obi-Wan: Blast! This is why I hate flying!"

    "Nute Gunray: She can't do that! Shoot her, or something!"

    "Anakin: It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's jealous. He's holding me back!"

    "Obi-Wan: What took you so long?
    Anakin: Well, you know, Master, I couldn't find a speeder that I really liked."

    "C-3PO: DIE, Jedi dogs!! Oh... what did I say?!"
     
  6. DrEvazan

    DrEvazan Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2002
    yes star wars has always had cheesy dialogue. somehow lucas has managed to make it stand out like a sore thumb in AOTC in a way it never did in the OT. perhaps it sticks out because he is trying to take the "sophisticated" route at the same time. perhaps it is because the cheesiness of AOTC's dialouge is lacking the cleverness that made the cheese more palateable in the OT. either way, for many fans, it just doesnt work.
     
  7. SkottASkywalker

    SkottASkywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2002
    The_Abstract, very well said. Intelligent and observant.
     
  8. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2000



    I applaud The Abstract for a great post!
     
  9. ferelwookie

    ferelwookie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2001
    I agree Dr. Evazan. Again, this is a case where an actor who delivers his lines sarcastically, like Ford in the OT, would've given some fans a wink-wink-nudge-nudge kind of feeling that "yes, we know the dialouge is lame...and it's supposed to be." To me, Han AND Leia's sarcasm in the OT is what makes some of the goofy lines they spout stand up, rather than falling flat like a lot of Christensens and Portman's "seriously" delievered lines.

    Just my opinion.
     
  10. The_Abstract

    The_Abstract Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Clever cheese you say! Coming right up!


    Typho: We made it. I guess I was wrong, there was no danger at all. (BOOM!!!!)


    Palpatine: Do it for me, M'lady, please. The thought of losing you is unbearable.


    Anakin(trying to be smooth): So have you...grown more beautiful...for a Senator.

    Padme: Oh, Annie, you'll always be that little boy I knew on Tatooine.


    Obi-Wan: It's too risky...besides, your senses aren't that attuned, my young apprentice.

    Anakin: And yours are?

    Obi-Wan: Possibly


    I could keep going...If you like.

     
  11. Ground_Crew

    Ground_Crew Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2002
    I am trying not to compare prequels and sequels as I thought it would save me a lot of heartache. BUT I liked a lot of the oneliners7short dialogues in AOTC, that´s for sure.
    Even liked their delivering for a change:

    OBI-WAN
    Your clones are very impressive. You must be very proud.

    JANGO FETT
    I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe.

    OBI-WAN
    Ever made your way as far as Coruscant?

    JANGO
    Once or twice.

    OBI-WAN
    Recently?

    JANGO
    Possibly...


    Those facial expressions were priceless!
     
  12. The_Abstract

    The_Abstract Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2002
    I would post the entire Coruscant Chase dialogue, but it's all classic, so it would take too much time.

    Thanks Ground-Crew for the assist.

     
  13. Darth-sennin

    Darth-sennin Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 24, 2001
    DrEvasan, the diologue you posted, with the exception of "this party's over" was pretty good. I felt that those were the few lines in the film that did give off that classic "wink-wink nudge-nudge" feeling. There were of course plenty of craptastic moments of diologue in AOTC, but the ones you listed weren't among them. More to the point, if you found said diologue to be bad I can't see how you would enjoy any of the SW films.
     
  14. DrEvazan

    DrEvazan Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2002
    well i guess some see it differently. i agree that the lines are cheesey in both the OT and the PT but i think the PT cheese is served on a paper plate while the OT cheese comes on a silver platter. the content and style of the lines is as important as the placement and delivery.

     
  15. The_Abstract

    The_Abstract Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2002
    I see DrEvazan has developed an acute case of lactose intolerance, while some us are still enjoying wholesome slices of American cheese everyday.

    Well then, I see that topic has been settled. Let's move on.

     
  16. DrEvazan

    DrEvazan Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2002
    yes lets, before my gas gets any worse.
     
  17. rsterling78

    rsterling78 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    "i agree that the lines are cheesey in both the OT and the PT but i think the PT cheese is served on a paper plate while the OT cheese comes on a silver platter. the content and style of the lines is as important as the placement and delivery."

    "yes lets, before my gas gets any worse."

    Ah, such sublime prose from the "writer" who criticizes the alleged B-movie dialog from AOTC. LOL! [face_laugh]

    Well, Draculas_guest, you got that "mature debate" you were looking for. LOL! See, I told you so.


    P.S. The_Abstract's post was intelligent and insightful. *nods respectfully at The_Abstract*


     
  18. The_Abstract

    The_Abstract Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Thank you rsterling78

    And with that we bid adieu to another round of the Basher/Gusher War.

    MODERATORS! SET YOUR WEAPONS FOR LOCK!

     
  19. GriffZ

    GriffZ Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 27, 2001

    All I have to say is: Grow up.

     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.