PT George Lucas, Post-ROTJ, states beautifully why the Prequels were necessary

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Han Burgundy, Oct 5, 2013.

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  1. Han Burgundy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3


    "This story, the one that we've seen, pays off in a much larger way because you get a sense it's the son vindicating the father. We are doing this in a context where we don't know where the father came from or what made him be what he is, or what needs to be vindicated. So we're just seeing the vindication take place without the act being seen."

    I think we've all felt this, on our first viewing of ROTJ after ROTS came out, how much more powerful Anakins redemption in when we've seen what he was, and what he's done. But it's great to hear the creator himself, long before the prequels were being made, recognize the need for that emotional context.
    Last edited by Han Burgundy, Oct 5, 2013
  2. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Actually I don't like that, since the Anakin in ROTS, um, did things at the Jedi Temple that make redemption pointless *hint hint* Had they cut out one scene, it would have made his redemption in ROTJ all the more powerful.
  3. Skelter Jedi Master

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  4. Skelter Jedi Master

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    Oct 31, 2012
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    Not impressed, sorry.
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    I don't really get what you mean here. How is anything Anakin does in ROTS worse than ANH -- when he stood by and allowed millions (or, more likely, billions) of civilians to be killed for no reason at all (including hundreds of millions of children)? Tarkin gave the order, yes, but Anakin was high enough up on the chain of command that he could have at least tried to stop it. And given that he has telepathic powers and Tarkin doesn't...that makes his lack of protests even more disquieting, given that he seems to have no problem choking the senior command staff. Not only that, but he participates in the intimidation of Leia.

    Even if you only consider him 1/1000th responsible, that's still at least tens of thousands of people...

    Personally, I just don't understand how one can think his actions in ROTS so much worse that they render him unworthy of redemption, given the massive loss of life that occurred in ANH.
  6. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 11, 2013
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    He wouldn't have stopped it either way...
    Last edited by Garrett Atkins, Oct 5, 2013
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    People find it harder to forgive the direct killing of children by him, maybe.
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  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    Why not? There were legitimate military reasons to stop its destruction. For one, Leia's information on the location of the Rebel base hadn't been confirmed, so if they destroy Alderaan and it turns out she was lying, they lose all leverage on her. To say nothing of the fact that you don't need to use an inhabited planet to demonstrate the Death Star's destructive power. Seeing an uninhabited asteroid is just as effective -- given that people are smart enough to put two and two together and realize what this would mean should the Death Star be turned against them.

    Given the scope of the loss of life in ANH, it just puzzles me that people are willing to forgive Vader for actively participating with Tarkin in this endeavor while they will wholeheartedly condemn him for ROTS as irredeemable.
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  9. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Tarkin is a higher rank than him. Had he chopped off Tarkin's head, he:
    1. Wouldn't have stopped the destruction of Alderaan
    2. Been fried by the Emperor for betrayal.
    He could have stopped his actions in ROTS, though...
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    Vader gets away with choking the command staff during their meeting. No one is willing to stand up to him. Do you really think if he had countermanded Tarkin's order that people would have listened to Tarkin over Vader?

    Plus, Palpatine didn't fry him following the destruction of the Death Star and all its personnel. I hardly think he would have been killed for pointing out legitimate reasons for why a planet of civilians shouldn't be killed.

    Also, he actively participated in intimidating Leia throughout. He didn't sit on the sidelines in protest, but was actively engaged with helping Tarkin.

    In both cases, had he made different choices, many lives could have been preserved. I don't see why his actions in ROTS are so egregious that they render him irredeemable, but not his actions in ANH where so many more were lost with no rhyme or reason behind it.
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  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
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    The Emperor's all the way over on Coruscant. Exactly how is he going to fry Vader?

    With Tarkin dead, the next senior officer is Motti. Who is going to remember what Vader did to him, and is not likely to order the Death Star to take the shot if he knows this will be immediately followed by a Force choke.
  12. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    But I don't think that's the point in all that. We are not supposed to "forgive" Anakin at the end and we don't have to because he dies either way. The Prequels (and in particular ROTS), however, show us what he lost. How much he lost. And how much pain and suffering he created. How much he hurt Luke's mother.

    And that makes Vader's decision to save Luke that much more rewarding, imo. He watched his mother dying in his own arms (because he couldn't save her), he witnessed the death of his wife (he couldn't save her, probably even caused her death) and then, finally, there is the chance for him to save someone. To save his son who still has compassion for him despite all his crimes.
    I think all that information makes Vader's final decision a lot more powerful and rewarding.

    I find Lucas put it nicely, too:
    Last edited by Samnz, Oct 5, 2013
  13. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 11, 2013
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    Motti's rank is lower than Vader's. Tarkin's is higher, and he was specifically told by the Emperor, who he fears.to take orders from him. Had he betrayed Tarkin, then Vader would have been taken on a nice trip to Coruscant to be fried by the Emperor.
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
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    I don't see how this is true at all.

    Vader wasn't fried when the entire Death Star and all its personnel were blown up. Do you really think, after such a crisis, that Palpatine would fry Vader for going over Tarkin's head and preventing Alderaan from being destroyed?

    But that's besides the point -- because Vader participated in Leia's interrogation. He actively played a part.
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  15. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 11, 2013
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    He was still loyal to the Empire though. That's all that mattered. And let's face it, Leia's interrogation is not nearly as bad as what he did in ROTS.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    star 6
    Vader may have been told to take orders from Tarkin- but that was his cover. His real reason for being sent there was so that Tarkin couldn't take the Death Star and turn it against the Emperor.
  17. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Hmm, never heard that, source? Still, betraying the Empire is a big no-no, so I stand by my interpretation that Vader didn't intervene because of the consequences.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    This is a guy who killed a lot of people and stopped feeling guilt for it. I don't think he cared what Tarkin did. He just believed that the Force was more powerful than the Death Star.


    "The thing with the kids is necessary to establish how far down the road he’d come to do something that, this brutal and barbaric and it had to be in there but I definitely didn't want to show it."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Oct 5, 2013
  19. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    And countermanding Tarkin wouldn't necessarily be disloyalty to the Empire. Particularly if Vader could show how Alderaan's destruction would have negatively impacted Palpatine and what Tarkin was trying to accomplish (which it did). Fact of the matter is, though, he didn't try to stop Tarkin -- he actively helped him. When Tarkin had Leia brought up to watch her planet be destroyed, Vader was helping him -- he boxed her in and held her down. And, as I said, even if you only consider him 1/1000th responsible, that in my opinion is the worst thing he does in the Saga.
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  20. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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  21. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    Who said it was?
  22. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Tarkin would have done it anyway, he obviously doesn't respect Vader. And holding Leia back, what was she going to do, punch him?
  23. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Not said, implied.
  24. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    If Tarkin had given the order, but Vader had countermanded it, who do you think the officers on the Death Star would have listened to? I'm going with the guy that can choke people with his mind.

    And his participation with Leia shows that he was actively supporting Tarkin's plan to destroy Alderaan. He didn't sit on the sidelines in protest of the action. Instead, he played a role by supporting the man who gave the order. Stated another way: given how high up Vader was on the command chain (second to Tarkin), if this were Nuremberg, he wouldn't walk away scot-free.

    How is it implied? As far as George Lucas' statement, he says that Luke was vindicated by his father. And he's right. Luke's faith in the fact that there still was some good in his father was vindicated since his father sacrificed his life to save his son's. That's not an excuse for the crimes he committed, but it did demonstrate that Luke was right and his father wasn't wholly evil.

    As for my earlier points, I just can't understand the willingness to overlook the role Vader played in Alderaan's destruction. It has nothing to do with his actions in ROTS being excusable -- they're not.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Oct 5, 2013
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  25. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    He couldn't do anything to stop it. That's all I can say.
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