PT George Lucas, Post-ROTJ, states beautifully why the Prequels were necessary

Could be so. If we're going to insist of calling Anakin's last moments redemptive, that's the only way I can see it. Because if it's a balancing act of good and evil deeds, well, I don't think those would weigh out in the positive column.

It sure wasn't his ability to deal with force lightning.

 

Not really.

 

Right. It only proved that Anakin cared for his son. If it was someone else, the outcome would not have been the same.

 

When comparing killing younglings to the context of the OT, Darth Vader
- Helped blow up Alderaan/(Did not stop it even if he openly disapproved.)
-Killed bunches of rebels, responsible for the Rogue Squadron's death. (... RIP Biggs T^T)
-Tried to turn his son to the dark side knowing that the Dark Side was the source of all his problems in the first place.
-Held Han and Leia hostage, did not care whatsoever if Han died from the carbonite process.

The fact that Vader had an insurmountably huge list of super horrible evil deeds made his redemption that much more powerful to me.
Vader was a more noble villain when compared to Tarkin, he did not approve of the Death Star's effortless way of committing genocide with a click of a button, calling it a Technological Terror. I think since they were in the Emperor's favor (or more like... the Emperor's ideas directly), Vader had no say in the Death Star or Tarkin.

This interpretation that he's fine with the genocide but would rather work to achieve results could be influenced by me viewing the PT first where they showed ROTS!Anakin casually committing atrocities. It really is hard to think about the character without the context of the PT.

 

I think, though, that the genocide of the Jedi was pretty well implied in the OT on its own however. Obi-Wan says that Vader helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. Then, of course, there's Tarkin's line about how Vader is all that's left of the religion. That alone pretty much flat-out states that Vader participated in genocide.

The more interesting point, I think, comes from ESB, when Yoda says that Luke is too old to train. Given that Luke's a young man (early twenties), one can imagine that the Jedi only took on new students who were quite young -- early teens at the latest, probably. And given that Tarkin said that Vader was all that was left of the Jedi religion, it doesn't take much to put together what had to have happened.

ROTS just finally showed us what, exactly, that was.

But I agree with you -- Anakin/Vader's crimes being so insurmountably huge is, in a way, much more inspiring for when he makes his redemption. Almost like saying, "he tried-- so what's your excuse?" to the audience.

 

I know the ending of RTOJ was made that much more moving to me after watching ROTS. I had actually watched ROTJ just a week before ROTS's 2005 release. After I saw ROTS, I popped ROTJ back in again, and watched all the Luke/Vader parts. I know it was more moving and more satisfying for me.

ROTS makes Vader into a much more pathetic figure. Anakin wasn't the Jedi he was supposed to be, as he admits, but Palpatine's seduction and his manipulation of his emotions (to save Padme) especially during the Mace v Palp scene made me feel that Anakin was mostly tricked and manipulated into becoming a Sith, and by the end of the film, it seems obvious to me that Vader doesn't have any choice but to remain Palpatine's apprentice. What else could he do? The Jedi wouldn't trust him, the newfound rebels wouldn't trust him. Maybe he could go into exile, but Palpatine probably would've hunted him down and killed him if he did that since he could still pose a threat. So, Vader was trapped under a master whom, at that point, he knew had tricked him into becoming a Sith, and he really couldn't help but doing whatever his master told him to, and his only remaining goal at that point was a goal of pure hate -- kill Palpatine -- but he also knew that he would probably never be able to do that, so he had to spend 23 years in this life that he never wanted and was mostly tricked into, while held hostage to suit that was smelly and uncomfortable.

So, when I watched ROTJ again, I didn't just feel it from Luke's eyes anymore. Before, I just felt that bittersweet satisfaction that Luke had redeemed his father just before his father died. After ROTS, I also saw it through Vader's eyes too. He was this pathetic trapped slave to evil, and he felt he couldn't shake the power of the dark side "It is too late for me, Son" "Obi-Wan once thought as you did. You don't know the power of the dark side." When I saw ROTJ, I heard Vader say these things, but I never felt where he was coming from or understood exactly what he meant. After ROTS, I totally understood where he was coming from. He was trapped in this horrible life that he felt he couldn't escape, and then his son, finally frees him from this life by an act of compassion. I mean, it's nice when you don't believe in yourself but someone else believes in you so much that he's willing to put everything on the line and then to have that person who believed in you to actually be right, and I think ROTS gives us a great idea of why Vader doesn't believe in himself and believes himself to be trapped because he's got nowhere else to turn.

Plus, there's the satisfaction, or actually more relief, that Palpatine is finally destroyed (except for some EU silliness IMHO). The PT made it crystal clear that he was the true mastermind, that he was the real evil behind it all. Vader seemed liked the tough guy, but it was really Palpatine who was totally in control all along, from the beginning of the fall of Vader and the Republic to the end, so it meant that more that Vader and Luke were free of this evil because of Vader's sacrafice to kill his master.

Lucas once said that he really thought of the Saga was one long movie, and I actually thought of writing him a letter after ROTS to tell him, "You were right. I didn't think the ending of ROTJ could be made better, but after watching ROTS, the ending of RTOJ became a richer experience for me." I didn't because I'm sure it'd never actually make it to him, but I hope he's heard someone tell him that who genuinely meant it.


In regards to Vader's ROTS atrocities being worse than his behavior in the OT, I don't see that at all. Vader could not have stopped the temple massacre. There were thousands of clone troopers who would've have killed him if he had had tried to protect the younglings. Vader didn't have to kill those younglings (I don't think he killed them all; there were bodies of younglings in other parts of the building), but he coudn't have prevented the clone troopers from killing them. They were dead either way. Also, Palpatine may have killed Vader for not following his orders. On the DS1, Vader had a much better chance to intervene. He could've simply killed Tarkin. I don't even think Tarkin was above him on the chain of command. I think they were on separate chains of command. Tarkin was in charge of the DS, but not in charge of Vader, only the Emperor was in charge of Vader, so Vader was meant to defer to Tarkin in regards to DS matters. However, if Vader thought that Tarkin was doing something that would harm the Empire, the Emperor surely would've allowed Vader to do so, and it's very easy to make the argument that destroying a longstanding member planet in the Republic would cause more damage than good. Also, Vader could've simply killed Tarkin, taken control of the Death Star, and made a stand against the Emperor, or Vader simply could've fled after killing Tarkin if he thought there'd be bad consequences and let the Emperor decide to do with the DS whatever he wants. In the Temple, those children were going to die one way or another -- by Vader's blade or clone troopers' rifles. On the other hand, IMHO Vader could've easily prevented the mass genocide of the destruction of Alderaan.

 

I think that what the prequel trilogy needed to do, was to show us that all the things in the OT that we're familiar with--the Empire, the Death Stars, Stormtroopers, TIE Fighters, etc--were not meant to be. The galaxy should never have turned out that way and it would not have, had Anakin Skywalker not joined the Sith. Sure there was a powerful Sith Lord named Sidious plotting his schemes behind everyone's back, but it should have been emphasized that Sidious was ultimately no match for the Jedi Order, that the rise of the Empire was not inevitable nor was it the will of the Force, and that only Anakin's betrayal brought about these events.

The other thing the prequel trilogy should have done was to fulfill Vader's line in ROTJ where he says: "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" in response to Luke's belief that he could be redeemed. It would've heightened the tragedy of Anakin's fall if Obi-Wan had come close to turning him back to the light side on Mustafar, only to fail in the end (there's a similar scene in the novel Dark Rendezvous with Yoda and Dooku). Instead, all we got was "only a Sith deals in absolutes!" and then cue overly-dramatic lightsaber duel.

 

First, Vader was never and could never be "vindicated", as in cleared of blame or fault, as if Anakin was right all along. The very idea of that contradicts ROTJ. If anything, it's the father that's vindicating the son, proving his son's faith in him wasn't in vain. "Redeem" or "atone" was the word he was looking for. Yeah, real beautiful statement from Georgie.

This thread isn't necessary, because of course the prequels were necessary, at least dozens of millions of people wanted to see the story of the Clone Wars and Darth Vader's betrayal. It's necessary because so many people wanted it. I don't think the necessity of the prequels was ever in serious dispute.

Of course, if you go by the strictest sense of the term, no movies are actually necessary.

That being said, I can't say the execution delivered any extra pay off, if anything the PT makes the OT come off worse, simply because I no longer want Vader to be "vindicated" or redeemed at all. Before the PT there was the possibility of Anakin being anything other than the despicable, loathsome, uninteresting, uninspiring, annoying and disappointing character that he is, now the mere possibility, the ability to imagine him as something else is gone forever. Before the PT, it felt good to see Vader do what he did, now it's just tainted by the character known as Anakin Skywalker, who inspires nothing but fantasies of Shmi getting an abortion. The PT was necessary, but now comes off as a necessary evil.

For me, the biggest improvement in terms of context that the PT provides for the OT is Obi-Wan's bitterness and Yoda's sad, lonely existence.

 

I think the part where Anakin chops Mace Windu's arm off does all of those things.

I agree with this. That line implied a history of Obi-Wan trying to bring Anakin back from the Dark Side. You could argue that Padme, moreso than Obi-Wan, felt that way.

 

Yep. That's why Vader grabbed her. He can sense the conflict within her.

Again, why would he want to stop it? He's a Sith Lord. He killed men, women and children. You think he's going to give a flying **** about Alderaan? A planet that holds no meaning for him.

Who took a dump in your cornflakes this morning?

 

Anakin's actions were not casual. He was upset over his actions, but his desire to prevent Padme's death with Palpatine's help overcame his feelings.

Can you be a little more clear with your comment? It sounds like mindless bashing, which is something that many PT bashers tend to indulge in.

 

I'm completely on PiettsHat's side concerning this debate (and just to clarify, which seems to be a neccessity in these sort of threads, I'm not a PT or an OT fan, but a fan of both).
In my opinion, Anakin's/Vader's redemption feels much more powerful when we've seen what he was, and what he's done. And the killing of the younglings isn't worse than anything he does later in his life.

Samnz also said it nicely in post #12 of this thread.

 

I like how for all the unrepentant evil things Anakin did as Vader, it was all erased by throwing an old man down and an elevator shaft. That's why we get to see a pre Youngling Murder/post Sandpeople slaughter Anakin at the end of ROTJ.

 

None of that is erased. He doesn't live long enough to make amends for his crimes. But he can become a good man again, which is why he says that Luke had already saved him. He saved his soul from torment by believing in him again. By forgiving him for what he did as Vader and loving him unconditionally. For offering up his life for him, even when he didn't ask him to do so. That's what brought him back from the darkness and that is why Obi-wan and Yoda helped him to take on a corporeal form again. Having it be his younger self instead of an old man was due to the fact that Lucas had changed the ages of Obi-wan and Anakin with the PT, and decided that Anakin's corporeal self shouldn't look old.

 

He gang rapes his own daughter how is that not bad enough?

 

What? Vader used a device designed to pry information out of her. What rape is there?

 

I've been salty about that for years.

 

i love this and how Lucas decided to create the story. I love the need for the Prequels to be made for the saga. I absolutely love how Star Wars was created.

My opinion of course.

 

Completely agree with PiettsHat and Han Burgundy. The concept of redemption being presented here isn't a 'squaring of the ledger' one.

 

This has been the obvious thing all along, of course the prequels were needed to see how not only Anakin but the whole Star Wars universe got tht e point it did in the classic trilogy.

 

Since I wasn't alive in 1983, I'm inclined to agree to Rachel up there. After watching ROTS, ROTJ made a lot more sense to me.

 

Agree.

Vader/Anakin's redemption in ROTJ is deeply dramatic and emotional within the OT context, and makes perfect sense on its own, without any PT relating the specifics of his fall.

To me, the prequels didn't really add or modify anything regarding that moment. I still see and feel ROTJ the same way I did before the PT's release.