PT George Lucas, Post-ROTJ, states beautifully why the Prequels were necessary

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Han Burgundy, Oct 5, 2013.

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  1. Nenim Chela Jedi Master

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    Oct 2, 2013
    star 1
    Yeah, all that Chosen One business was and still is a bit confusing. Even though Vader killed the Emperor, personally, I still feel that Luke was the Chosen One. At least that's what I'm going to tell my niece when she's old enough to watch the SW Saga, as I'll be playing the movies to her in the order in which I saw them--IV-III, VII-IX. Who cares what GL officially decrees. =)

    Having said that, the SW Saga obviously still works for the Gen Y/PT crowd. I wonder if instead of experiencing two of the biggest cinematic reveals of all time (the 'Luke, I am your father' and 'YOU'RE Yoda' scenes, respectively) this gen experienced a slow, delicious build-up to those very same moments? As someone who grew up on the OT I can only wonder, but as a student of the SW films I find this question fascinating.
    Last edited by Nenim Chela, Oct 13, 2013
  2. El Jedi Colombiano Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 24, 2013
    star 3
    Obi-Wan did forgive Anakin in the end. So yeah, I guess forgiveness is a big part of the equation.
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  3. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I wonder when was the exact moment that Obi-Wan forgave Anakin? That's always interested me.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The Chosen One is the person who destroyed the Sith. Darth Vader, who was once Anakin Skywalker, kills Darth Sidious and then dies himself. All Luke did was encourage his father to stop being an evil bastard and do the right thing. As to the order to show them, Lucas said back in 05 that you get two different points of view. That's what he liked about making the PT and connecting it to the OT. You couldn't really do that with other films. Not many allow for that.


    The point where he became good again and saved his son, while fulfilling his destiny. The fact that all three of them are standing together, is also a clue as the two Jedi Masters are the ones who helped Anakin to become a corporeal ghost.
  5. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 23, 2013
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    So what will Lucas say is the best order now with the ST?

    4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3?

    4,5,6,1,2,3,7,8,9?

    1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9?

    4,5,1,2,3,6,7,8,9?

    [face_dunno]
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  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    What he's said since 05. You can watch it however you want. Sure, he would probably like it as I-VI and then VII-IX. But he also understand how one will show it to their offspring.

    "I like the idea of seeing something from a different perspective. An advantage I have in this particular situation is that I have literally twelve hours to tell a story. It has the epic quality of following one person from the time he's nine years old to the time he dies. It's Anakin's story, but obviously there are many other characters in that story- his children, his best friend- and their stories carry through. So this isn't just a tune- it's a symphony. When you do it as a symphony, I think it actually becomes beautiful."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

    If you see them in order it completely twists things about. A lot of the tricks of IV, V and VI no longer exist. The real struggle of the twins to save their father becomes apparent, whereas it didn't exist at all the first time [audiences saw Episodes IV, V and VI]. Now Darth Vader is a tragic character who's lost everything. He's basically a bitter old man in a suit.

    "I am your father" was a real shock. Now it's a real reward. Finally, the son knows what we already know.

    It's a really different suspense structure. Part of the fun for me was completely flipping upside down the dramatic track of the original movies. If you watch them the way it was released, IV, V, VI, I, II, III - you get one kind of movie. If you watch I through VI you get a completely different movie. One or two generations have seen it one way, and the next generations will see it in a completely different way.

    It's an extremely modern, almost interactive movie making. You take blocks and move them around, and you come out with different emotional states."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Oct 13, 2013
  7. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    My point was that the Chosen One aspect wasn't part of the equation back when ROTJ/the OT films were made. Vader/Anakin's redemption was relevant in so far as it related to Luke's character arc.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 13, 2013
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Doesn't matter if it did factor in, or not back then. Luke is down and Vader is the one who stops Palpatine, then dies himself. All Lucas did was justify the importance of that in the PT.
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Shifting the focus from Luke's arc, to being essentially 'about' Vader/Anakin, is a mighty substantial "all".
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 13, 2013
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  10. Beezer Force Ghost

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    Jul 5, 2013
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    There's really nothing in the movies which confirms that, and I don't care what someone said in some interview somewhere because there are countless examples of things said in an interview being changed. All the movies says is the Chosen One would "bring balance to the Force," but even that phrase really isn't clear what it means. (Yes, I know Obi-Wan says the Chosen One would destroy the Sith, but Yoda immediately says that the prophecy may have been misread, so there's really nothing definitive from the films)

    We may discover in E7 that the Sith have not been destroyed, so does that mean Anakin is not the Chosen One?
    Last edited by Beezer, Oct 13, 2013
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  11. Skywalker Thing Jedi Padawan

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    Aug 31, 2013
    One that I personally feel is both wrong and unnecessary.
    Last edited by Skywalker Thing, Oct 13, 2013
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  12. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    An interesting point about the non-destruction of the Sith, Beezer.
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Oct 13, 2013
  13. Nenim Chela Jedi Master

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    Oct 2, 2013
    star 1
    So what will Lucas say is the best order now with the ST?

    4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3?

    4,5,6,1,2,3,7,8,9?

    1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9?

    4,5,1,2,3,6,7,8,9?

    [face_dunno][/quote]

    I'll probably go with A).
  14. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    He'll definitely go with (C).
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  15. Skywalker Thing Jedi Padawan

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    Aug 31, 2013
    Or he'll defer to Kathy because they aren't "his stories anymore". Lol.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I think I know "someone"'s secret identity...

    So you might as well bet on this one being changed? What if that doesn't happen?

    We also know the Chosen One would have something to do with midichlorians, given that Qui-Gon's mention of Anakin's high midichlorian count and his belief that Anakin may have been conceived by the midichlorians immediately provoked Mace to infer that Qui-Gon was talking about the prophecy.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 13, 2013
  17. Nenim Chela Jedi Master

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    Oct 2, 2013
    star 1
    GL has actually said that before hasn't he? "Star Wars is MY thing." Perhaps in terms of reaping the financial rewards and risks, not to mention all of the critical backlash. Yet SW never really "belonged" to him. Lucas made the same mistake that the film critic Steve Erickson feels Coppolla made with "The Godfather Part III", namely assuming that because he created the characters that he could do whatever he wanted with them. Then again, we can always follow GL's advice and go off and make our own Star Wars as well. I have. And it's all in here (points to head).
    Last edited by Nenim Chela, Oct 13, 2013
  18. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    With all due respect, PiettsHat, by the above ^^^ metric, ANY 'happy ending' for ROTJ or the OT in general would seem a 'tad....arbitrary'. That being said, you are right in that the circumstances of the ending of the OT storyline - and the character arc of Luke - sort of 'forced' Lucas to come up with the redemption of Vader, instead of it being considered for it's own sake, ie as part of Vader's over-all character arc in abstract terms*.

    *there are even little indications from the Rinzler Making of books (esp. the TESB and ROTJ ones) - where they discuss the character of Vader and his relationship with the Emperor - that Luke actually killing Vader wasn't even 'in the cards' back when the story was that Vader and Luke's father were two different characters in the story, and the former had killed the latter. Even Gary Kurtz's muddled 'Debbie-Downer' version of ROTJ doesn't have Luke killing Vader, even though Vader does die in his 'version'.


    And, to flip things around a bit, (for me at least), the PT muddles some of the OT's story/character motivations. For instance: given how Sidious/Palpatine had 'played' Dooku via Anakin, how could he just assume that Vader wouldn't see through the whole "let's together recruit Luke to the DS" tactic in ROTJ?
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 13, 2013
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  19. Skywalker Thing Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Me too, man. I even created my own wikia for it a couple years back.
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  20. Nenim Chela Jedi Master

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    Oct 2, 2013
    star 1
  21. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    star 4
    By arbitrary, I meant that the OT never really laid out the reasons for why Vader would want to turn back. Watching the OT on its own, Vader seems obsessed with the Dark Side, willingly fights/hurts Luke and lets him fall to his death (with no apparent regret), and seemingly has no reason to turn against his Master (unless it is the seize power for himself). What reason does he have to save Luke? Why should he care if his son dies? I just found that the OT was "arbitrary" in the sense that it never really expounded on this factor. Now there's a good reason for this, of course -- the story is told from Luke's perspective, so Luke himself won't know why his father did what he did, and thus his father's actions are just as surprising to Luke as they are for the audience, being a culmination of faith.

    But in terms of understanding Vader's motivations, the PT is a critical part of my viewing experience. For me, at least, the PT makes the fact that Luke saved his father just as important as Anakin saving Luke was to culminating Luke's story and validating his faith.

    I will have to say that I've never had trouble reconciling Anakin's motivations. I've never doubted, for instance, that both Anakin and Palpatine in the OT know exactly what the other is up to. They just accept it as part of being a Sith -- that there is no loyalty and it's a dog-eat-dog world. I think Anakin's been burned one too many times to not be suspicious of anything Palpatine says or does by default.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Pun intended
  23. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    Obiwan's description of Anakin having once being a good man and a Jedi, and then the OT's explanation of what that means and the way that someone can be seduced by the dark side of the force was always enough to make his redemption in ROTJ powerful for me.
  24. Darth Raiden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2013
    star 3

    At the time yes it was enough to an extent... Seeing how far he went down in the prequels made it all the stronger... My opinion of course
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10

    That's because Lucas expanded the story beyond just Luke's story.

    The two Star Wars trilogies share many characters but have different structures. Instead of telling another heroic coming-of-age story, Lucas has crafted the prequels a historical drama, at whose center is Anakin Skywalker. His story is tragic; that of the Republic-turned-Empire, uncomfortably familiar. Anakin begins as a nine-year-old boy who is physically enslaved. He ends the prequel saga a spiritual and mental slave to the Emperor, who is his metaphorical if not biological father....

    But the end of Revenge of the Sith is not the end of Anakin, whose story really closes when it merges with those of his children, Luke and Leia, in Return of the Jedi.

    Anakin Skywalker's final confrontation with the Emperor occurs during Luke's final confrontation with the Emperor, which compliments his father's dealings with the same man many years earlier. Indeed the life of the father and the life of the son are commentaries on each other.


    "The Star Wars saga is like a symphony, which has recurring themes," he adds, "You have one theme orchestrated in a particular way and place, which then comes back orchestrated as a minor theme somewhere else. There are these little threads running through things that are constantly turning events on their head. You see two people confronting the same things, with different ends. It's a rhythm."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

    Which then continues into what I posted earlier. Luke had a particular task in ROTJ, just as we now know that Anakin had one as well. It just took him longer to accomplish that task. If Lucas hadn't become so interested in "Father Vader", during the making of the OT, then Luke would have killed Palpatine and thus be the hero of prophecy, as he originally intended.

    Lucas has been consistent on the balance to the Force since 1999, when he first started talking about it. Between 1999 and 2005, Lucas has said repeatedly that Anakin is the Chosen One and he brings balance to the Force, by taking out Palpatine and dying. As to Yoda saying it was misread, it wasn't because Anakin still does what Obi-wan said that he would do. If any misreading was done, it was what the Chosen One was at the time. Meaning, it didn't say that he had to be a Jedi at the time. Just that he was the one to do it and he did so while he was a Sith Lord.

    The imbalance is that the dark side of the Force is growing stronger, which Yoda talks about in the PT, as well as their abilities growing weaker. Balance comes when the root cause of the imbalance, Darth Sidious, is eliminated.

    There will probably be new Sith Lords, but they won't be connected to that prophecy. Hell, there are Sith still alive in the EU, but balance still came to the Force.

    Why?

    Because Vader fears him. That much is clear as he never pushes for Luke to help him take over, once they meet up on Endor. He even sounds resigned to the fact that Luke will become a Sith. Palpatine, meanwhile, no longer things highly of Vader and thus he doesn't believe in his betrayal. Even in the first draft of ROTJ, while Palpatine has Luke as his mercy, he still thinks of Vader as loyal to him until it dawns on him that he was worried about the wrong Skywalker.
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