George Lucas wusses out, cuts Jar Jar's lines

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by BothofUs, May 4, 2005.

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  1. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    CJedi72, I do agree that Lucas didn't realize that the classic trilogy had really been more about Vader than Luke while he was making it. As mentioned in the preceeding part of the article, it was Joseph Campbell who pointed it out to him.

    He had his outline for what would happen in the prequels regarding Vader and Anakin. At one point he wasn't sure they were going to be the same guy, but the story of the fallen Jedi was always there.

    Lucas says that when he set out to create a modern myth consciously, he found things very difficult, but when he just wrote his story without concsiously trying to place mythological aspects he found that a lot of them just grew spontaneously out of what he was doing.

    He felt the story started to almost write itself after a while, so it's no suprise that he would not realize where fate had taken things until after he had finished the classic trilogy.

    I still don't see this as a lie or contradiction. Because even if he had only noticed that after ROTJ, it was something that had always been there in the classic trilogy. So the story -has- always really been about Anakin, it just didn't hit Lucas until the half way point.

  2. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    LOL, I think we're going to gave to agree to disagree, Gomer. I genuinely believe that GL did tone down JJ as he would have been a fool not to. Box office was great for TPM. Imagine less JJ damaging the hype? Who do the fans like? Boba Fett. We'll Have more of him then. It's pretty obvious, and he himself has admitted this, that a lot of the PT he was making up as he went, which is natural for any writer. Enough people hate one of your creations and you're not going to want to use him so much. I don't see what's so wrong with that anyway. I think it shows GL in a good light to be honest.

    I'm afraid I also disagree with you on the TPM doc. I've watched it enough times and my interpretation is that he realizes it's not quite what he was hoping for, but that's just my POV, and as we know in the gffa that's all important.
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    When it comes to what Lucas is trying to say, isn't his POV meaningful at all? Seriously re-watch it without assuming what it means, and listen to what he actually says.

    The whole saga was fleshed out as he went. The classic trilogy is no different. But he did have his outline that he came up with while making ANH.
  4. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I have watched it. I honestly believe that's what he means.

    You're right about the OT being fleshed out as he went, but it was a much more collaborative effort. He had all the time in the world to sit down and get each of the scripts for the prequels sorted before he started filming. I'm sorry but I wish he'd spent as long as it took to get them as good as he could before he started filming anything, with the best writers he could get his hands on. But that's just my opinion.
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Why do you think he is talking about Jar-Jar in that bit?
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Boba Fett was always going to be in the PT, so he's not in the film to appease the Fett fans. He's there because going back to the making of TESB, Boba Fett had a part in the PT. His original story was that he was part of a group of warriors known as the Shock Troopers and that he had ties to the Stormtroopers of the OT. Fett in ANH and ROTJ is for the fans more than anything. Lucas also said that Boba Fett was going to be in ROTS, but then couldn't make it work so he's not there. Just the Jango Fett clones.

    There is nothing to prove that he reduced Jar Jar's part, because of fan backlash. Just assumptions and you know what happens when you assume.

  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Exactly. If you go by What Lucas has uniformly said time and time again, Jar-Jar's role was reduced because the story centers in on the key players, and all side characters go to the wayside.

    He also says he was never interested in pleasing the people who didn't like Jar-Jar.

    It's also interesting to note that when TPM came out on DVD, it had more Jar-Jar added to it than the theatrical version. Hardly the actions of a person who is taking the Jar-Jar backlash to heart.
  8. CJedi72 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 4


    This is where I disagree, cause Lucas could have easily made the PT story about the fall of the republic as the main story, and the characters are all a part of it. Instead he made the PT Anakins story with the fall of the republic tying into that.

    If he chose to do the PT as the the first idea, he could have basically done the same story as TPM, AOTC, and ROTS, but it would focus less on Anakin as the main player, just a player. He wouldn't have been locked into a ten year old Anakin in TPM, or have to take out key scenes in ROTS that didn't deal with Anakin (Rebellion, Force Ghost Issue, etc.)

    By making the trilogy about Anakin, he had to focus on him in every story, but could have just as easily made three movies as the republic falls, the sith take over, and the process, Anakin is a great jedi and turns because he was seduced by Palpatine, to save his wife Padme, and finally fight his longtime friend ObiWan. Nothing changes, just the focus of the movies from Anakin to the galaxy.

    It could have still had a true 6 movie arc, It would have just been a 6 movie macro story of the SW universe, rather than a 6 movie micro story of Anakin Skywalker.

    I think after the OT, Lucas could have gone two ways, and it probably hit him sometime after ROTJ, I could make this into a story of Anakin Skywalker as his rise, fall, and redemption, just as he could have substituted the Anakin for the Republic vs Empire, and to me, it would have the same players, but be more like the original SW, where it would be more of a macro story.

    You guys pick, what would you have rather seen, Macro or Micro?
  9. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Jar Jar, as Lucas said at the time, was created partly because he was pushing the boundaries with CGI.
    He really wanted to see if he was capable of creating a totally CGI character and having him interact on the same level as the human actors for TPM.

    Now, the problem is, some people leave it at that and presume that Jar Jar was just put in there for this reason alone - to serve the technology.
    That is obviously not the case.
    It could have been anyone who was CGI - in fact, plenty of other characters were totally CGI, but much of the pre-publicity focused on Jar Jar because he had the most screentime.

    People seem to neglect the fact that Jar Jar was, regardless of how he was realised, still an integral part of the narrative.
    This whole issue of symbiosis is a theme that is returned to throughout the saga - especially in ROTS where we have Padmé dying as Anakin "dies"... as the Republic dies.
    And so on.
    He is supposed to be goofy and annoying - that is part of the point.

    The village idiot can be a powerful ally.
    The other Jedi cannot see it - "Master, why do you keep dragging these pathetic life forms along with us?"
    Qui-Gon Jinn is different.
    He sees things differently to the other Jedi. When he helps Jar Jar, we have to see how Jar Jar is a character we ourselves would struggle to bring ourselves to help, because he is clumsy, misguided, foolish and goofy.
    But still QGJ helps him, and the Naboo end up with an army to fight the Trade Federation because of it. Obi and QGJ end up with a bongo ride to Theed becuase they initially help him.

    We already saw this happening with the Ewoks in ROTJ - befriend the little teddy bears and you can overthrow the Empire, it's a theme Lucas keeps returning too. Originally it was the Wookiees.
    It needed to be restressed in TPM, because symbiosis was being expanded on - it's importance to the nature of the Force is key to the PT.

    Once that had been done, Jar Jar could take a backseat.
    Light relief was not needed for AOTC - it was supposed to be a darker film.
    ROTS even more so.

    It is only natural that Jar Jar's role withers - he simply has nothing to do, narratively. He served his purpose in TPM.
    His one vaguely noteable scene in ROTS was dropped because it simply wasn't needed.
  10. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    I don't think that was ever going to happen.
    It was always going to be about Vader.
    He's said that since the late 70s - that's all he's ever revealled about the prequels: that we learn where Vader come from, what happened between Vader and Kenobi.
    All the Vanity Fair quote says is that Lucas didn't realise exactly how biographical the OT was once he saw it with hindsight.

    "You know, Star Wars was a success, but I didn't have any idea then what was going on. I didn't know whether I was even going to be able to make the next two films. I had taken two thirds of the original script and thrown it away. In my mind, I was saying 'Gee, if this is a really big hit, then I can make a movie out of all the early material that I developed.' Empire and Jedi were what the first film was supposed to be[...] All the prequel stories exist: Where Darth Vader came from, the whole story about Darth and Ben Kenobi, and it all takes place before Luke was born. - Lucas, Rolling Stone, 1983

    I'm pretty sure Anakin was always going to be the focus. He has no reason to make a film about the Republic. As you point out - he realised in 1988 exactly what was at the core of his films, why would he ever have rejected that in favour of a film about the Republic?

    Like I said, Lucas has always talked about the PT in terms of Vader's history.
    It just didn't hit him how every nuance of the OT fed into Vader's story until he had exorcised himself of them.

    I'd rather watch a film about humans, than a film about the backdrop to humans.
    The Republic is just the frame - the story is about relationships, choices and redemption.
    Always has been.
    I'd rather see the picture than the frame.
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Of course Lucas could have done it differently. I just think the kind of story he is trying to tell has to be told through the story of a few main characters. The hero's journey is integral to a traditional myth. He couldn't have just made this a historical recount from a galactic perspective, that would have been c-span.

    I can see not liking it, but you can't expect Lucas to just take a 180° turn in his approach half way through.

    Half of the point of the prequels is setting up Luke for his journey. While the whole 6 film saga is mostly Anakin's story, for the classic trilogy It is shown largely from Luke's perspective. Before, everyone knew Luke was the Hero, and therefore, we knew he would prevail. After seeing all the ways Anakin messed up, now it's not such a given. It adds more tension and drama to everything.
  12. CJedi72 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 4
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    The tradition has always been to focus on the human drama, with the macro as the backdrop.
  14. darthvaderv Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    Lucas obviously wimped out when it came to Jar Jar and ultimately listened to the majority of fans. I don't dislike the character but he is annoying.
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Actually, it's pretty obvious he didn't care about the Jar-Jar backlash and instead had less Jar-Jar becuase that was his original plan.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    People complained about Greedo shooting first, yet it's still there. People complained about Han stepping on Jabba's tail, yet it's still there. People complained about Jedi Rocks, but it's still there.
  17. CJedi72 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 4


    And when were they ever released in the movies after 1997? It is a big difference of putting the movies on screen, and getting people to the theater, and selling only one version of the OT DVD in 2004, where fans have been drooling for 7 years to have it, and would probably take anything at that time.

    These were new movies, AOTC & ROTS, Lucas had to sell them to the public, the OT SE, though I hate the changes, I still bought it cause it was the only version out there, Lucas had me.

    The prequels had to give me a reason to go, I had to want to see them. If Jar Jar had the same role in AOTC that he did TPM, I would have never seen it, cause for me personaly, he ruins every scene he is in TPM. For the OT SE DVD, I would have bought anything in 2004, cause I had to have them.

    But see if Lucas ever would put out another edition of the OT DVD with more changes, I bet everyone who hates the SE now wouldn't buy them, cause they are waiting for the O-OT, and have already bought the 2004 DVD. You don't understand, for the all the people that hate the changes of the OT, and don't like the PT, the only way Lucas can get their money is release the O-OT. And that is a good part of the SW fanbase.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    People will buy anything with Star Wars on it. They bought the 1994 editions, the 1997 versions, the 2000 editions (which only a new thing at the start) and both DVD sets. Let's not forget the laser discs. People will again buy the films if he puts out new changes. If Lucas were able to put out the 3-D versions, they'll watch them or buy them.

    As to people going to see AOTC and ROTS, they were already going to go because it's Star Wars. Jar Jar had no impact. Spider-Man took in more money because people were waiting just as long to see him, as they were TPM. Add in the 9/11 elements, that the story takes place in NYC and features a heroic hero and you've got a good recipe for a hit. This summer had Batman Begins and Fantastic Four as major competition. All three did well, with ROTS taking the most money of the three films. War Of The Worlds did well, but didn't have as big repeat performence value as the others.
  19. CJedi72 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 4


    Don't get me wrong, there is a segment that will buy anything SW, you don't have an argument here. But there is an older fanbase that grew up with the OT, such as myself, who bought the OT DVD's in 2004, cause as I said we were craving them for years. Out of this part of the SW demographic, many don't like the PT, so will not be buying the supposed 6 disc saga set next year, and don't care for anymore SE OT changes. But there is one last DVD Lucas can take our money, the O-OT DVD. I know, because I am one of those fans, and I know alot fans that are my age that feel the same.

    Remember the SE came out in 1997, and that is the year DVD took off, so Lucas was going to get our money on any DVD edition he put out first. But after that, its the originals or nothing. Again, I am not talking about every SW fan, but there is a huge older fanbase that will pay for one more release.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Well, as has been said before, Lucas isn't interested in putting out the O-OT. It's been proven that he won't. He wouldn't let the original version of ANH be shown as a cinema presention of films that changed cinema throughout the years. Only the SE. He barred Sci-Fi, USA Network, FOX and other stations from showing those versions again. Only the SE's. Anytime the OT footage was shown in some type of deal, it was the SE's. I didn't get to see if he had the 2004 DVD's for when certain FOX stations were showing the OT, last spring. In late 2004, he said that he had the rights secured and no one will be able to undo what he has done. Or do a sequel. Or a remake.

    Hell will have a hockey franchise before the THX Editions see the light of day. Regardless of the money he could get off of it, he has no desire to release it. The closest anyone will get is what's in the "Empire Of Dreams" documentry, "From Star Wars To Jedi" and the bootleg copies. Along with their old VHS and Laser Disc copies.
  21. CJedi72 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 4


    As I have always said, you may be right and you may be wrong, but the debate was about whether people will buy anything SW related, and I have said that there is substantial fanbase that just want the O-OT on DVD, heck there is a web page where 80,000 people have signed it in support of it. Who knows if he will put it out, but as long as he doesn't, he won't be getting anymore money from me.
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Again I don't think it was that Lucas wouldn't let the film festival show the original OT, they came to him asking him for the original, and he had none to give them. Instead he made them a brand new print that had more stuff done to it since the SE's. That cost a lot of money for just one showing but they did it.
  23. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Go-mer, you survived! [:D]
  24. Darth_Zoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 4
    Didn't Jar Jar say "scuse me" at the start of the film when the possy meet Palps and Anakin.
  25. JabbasBounty Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Thank God they cut Jar Jars lines out. I couldn't stand him he was only created for comic relief and for giving complete power to chancellor. Sorry to Jar Jar fans out there.
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