German-American Relations: What Would You Do?

I arrived in Frankfurt, West Germany in October 1990 as a 17 year old private, straight out of basic training, with the spectre of Desert STorm overhead.

I could feel it when I arrived in Germany then, there was a sense of respect for the uniform I wore and the country I served, and I won't deny, I liked it.

And when we returned from Desert Storm in summer of 1991, there was something else there, when myself and others took leave to visit Berlin, from some of the West Germaner's, to be sure, but even more so from the East Germans and Soviet Troops that we ran into when we were heading to Berlin.

Respect....and Fear.

I left Germany in Summer of 1992 for stateside duty. During the time I was gone.....the Soviets pulled out, East and West Germany reunited...and Bill Clinton was elected president.

From what I have heard, in East Germany during the Soviet Occupation there, the people of East Germany were taught to hate America, so maybe we are seeing that now.

Still when I returned from stateside duty to Germany in October of 1995, with the spectre of deployment to Bosnia now hanging over our heads, I sensed the change almost immediately when I reentered Germany.

Contempt mostly, is what I sensed. I could tell they no longer looked up to the United States or respected us anymore. That was just my feelings, but I usually trust them so that is my feelings on that.

It is sad, that German relations have gone the way they have. Left wing Liberal Socialists are now in charge there, and I fear the Germany I knew once is gone for a long time.

Why did things go wrong? It is clear to me that it was the Clinton factor did. It is clear that because of CLinton, that Germany no longer looks up to AMerica, but down on us. That is clear across Europe, which is why I have vowed not to set foot there any time soon.

 

Man, you ARE kidding with half of this aren't you?

Aren't you? ?

You're not?

E_S

 

weel, rsterling78, if you have heard the after election debates, you would have realized, that the "anti-america" rhetoric, you named, wasn´t responsible for the election.

it was all about not bombing irak back into the stone age, without UN resolution. and you may have heard of other european countries, with the same opinion, but the remark of our chancellor is not the opinion from all our people.

GAP´s point is good, the flooding was an importend point to win the election. and one thing i mentioned before, the "Bavarian-Factor".

 

It is sad, that German relations have gone the way they have.

Yep. Sure is. I wouldn't blame Germany for that, though. They got along fine with the previous administration - it's just Bush's gung-ho cowboy posturing that seems to have irritated them, like it has many others, in many other countries.

Left wing Liberal Socialists are now in charge there,

Uh... can you come up with any more synonyms for people on the Left? I mean, left-wing would do. Liberal would, too. Even Socialist, though it's entirely possible to be on the left-wing and not be a Socialist. But all three? Overkill.

and I fear the Germany I knew once is gone for a long time.

Well, if you refer to the fact that it was once in right-wing hands, I agree. It was. It was called Nazism. Geeze.

Why did things go wrong? It is clear to me that it was the Clinton factor did.

You're misjudging foreign opinions. Clinton garnered a lot of respect for your country overseas, through his obvious intellect and brilliant oration. Bush, bumbling Southern cowboy, insisting on a war on Iraq with or without the backing of Germany and the rest of the UN, seems to be the one that has lost it. One of the major points in the saga was when one of the German ministers compared Bush to Hitler - this doesn't seem to have anything to do with Clinton to me.

It is clear that because of CLinton, that Germany no longer looks up to AMerica, but down on us.

Heh, I wouldn't blame Clinton for that. As I've said, he gained a hell of a lot of respect for your country. When he spoke at the Labour Party Conference over here in Britain, even the right-wing newspapers gave him orgasmic applause, while even they bash Bush like nobody's business. I'd be looking to blame the current head honcho, not the previous one.

That is clear across Europe, which is why I have vowed not to set foot there any time soon.

Well, Europe has been drifting to the right for a while now (Pim Fortuayn in Netherlands, Jean-Marie La Pen in France, the BNP in Britain). If you're suggesting that's not adequate enough a mood, I suggest you crack out your Nazi tapes and remind yourself of the good ol' days, 'cause they aren't coming back.

Stop living in the past. Europe, and most of the countries in it (Germany in particular) are some of the most progressive, vibrant and modern nations on the earth. Since the end of the Cold War, the fall of the Berlin Wall and the creation of the EU/EEC, things seem to only be getting better. If you're not happy with that, and preferred it when Europe was a hostile, conflict-ridden place of extremism, then by all means, don't step foot here.

We don't want you.

- TSB.

 

Well, to the most part, you make my case.

It is only natural that weak peoples would favor other weak peoples, and based on that, I can see why Bill Clinton is so popular over there in Europe. As you saw on Tuesday in the United States, practically everywhere Clinton visited to campaign was the death knell to many a Democrat candidate.

If the best you can do against George W Bush is to attack his sentence structuring....man, are you people in trouble.

Like I said, when you EUropeans love Clinton and hate Bush the way you do....well, it sort of proves my point......

 

It is only natural that weak peoples would favor other weak peoples,

I wouldn't call Europe, nor any of the countries within it, weak. Remember what language you speak. Remember which culture influenced yours. Remember who saved your lives in the world wars, and who are some of your biggest trading partners. Remember that you are not infallible, nor invincible, but simply ignorant.

and based on that, I can see why Bill Clinton is so popular over there in Europe.

He is popular over here for the same reason he is popular in large portions of America - because he is an intelligent, articulate, moderate and charismatic man.

As you saw on Tuesday in the United States, practically everywhere Clinton visited to campaign was the death knell to many a Democrat candidate.

I wouldn't blame Clinton for that. The Democrats campaigned lousily, had weak policies and had the whole anti-American thing to deal with.

If the best you can do against George W Bush is to attack his sentence structuring....man, are you people in trouble.

Oh, there is far more than that. But I believe we were discussing international opinions? It's his awful sentence structuring (a lot of ESL people speak better), posturing and idiotic cowboy persona that has lost you popularity overseas, not your previous president.

Like I said, when you EUropeans love Clinton and hate Bush the way you do....well, it sort of proves my point......

Well, if the point is that we prefer an intelligent, charismatic and knowledgeable ex-President over the current bumbling, as-charismatic-as-a-wet-leek, fascist one, then yes. Consider your point entirely proven.

If it's wrong for us to have preferred your previous, excellent president, then we're as guilty as sin. But he wasn't the one who makes a mockery out of your country and Government overseas. You complain about lack of respect, but you could have done a lot to gain that by not voting his party in control of the Senate.

- TSB.

 

Good point there. There are many people sharing your opinion of Mr. Bush...

 

Yep. Although, according to the Bush School of Logic, of which many of the Senate's regulars are graduates, if you're not for Bush and the USA you MUST, by His own logic, by against them!

E_S

 

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla!!!

You know, for someone who hold against Bush that he said "There aught to be limits to freedom" and I look at the repressions of freedom in your own country, it really makes you look like a fool.

On 60 MInutes 2 last summer, they did a report on England and Wales and how it has the highest violent crime rate then aywhere in the US; how yeah, gun murders are down but robbery, muggings, rape, everything else is up. How the Government spent billions on camera's everywhere and on the average photographs it's citizens over 300 or 3000 times a day or something like that. They talked about people being tried 3 or 4 or 5 times untill the prosecutors get the verdict they way.

That was from Dan Rather, too!

And you cry about George W Bush saying "There aught to be limits to freedom". Maybe you shoudl concern yourself with my country less and your country more....

 

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla!!!

Oh, this is mature.

You know, for someone who hold against Bush that he said "There aught to be limits to freedom" and I look at the repressions of freedom in your own country, it really makes you look like a fool.

Why is that? I hold it against anyone to suppress freedom. What makes you think I'm not trying to change things in my country? I don't see why my nationality discredits me from criticising GWB. This is idiocy.

On 60 MInutes 2 last summer, they did a report on England and Wales and how it has the highest violent crime rate then aywhere in the US;

This is just BS that you're coming up with in order to hit out at England. I don't care. Really. I know violent crime is bad here. I know this isn't a great country. SO WHAT? I don't claim that it's better.

How the Government spent billions on camera's everywhere and on the average photographs it's citizens over 300 or 3000 times a day or something like that.

Nothing of the sort, but it's still besides the point. Even if it did, it doesn't stop me from criticising GWB.

They talked about people being tried 3 or 4 or 5 times untill the prosecutors get the verdict they way.

We have a law against double jeapordy.

And you cry about George W Bush saying "There aught to be limits to freedom".

Cry? Not quite. I quoted that phrase once, TripleB. ONCE. I didn't even expand on it. I wouldn't exactly say I had a heart-attack over it, would you?

Maybe you shoudl concern yourself with my country less and your country more....

What makes you think I'm not concerned with my country? This, combined with your rabid Republicanism in other threads, shows just how immature you are.

What my country is like has nothing to do with how I criticise other countries. If it did, no body could criticise anyone - and we know it doesn't work like that.

Try to respond to the criticism and cut the childish behaviour, TB.

- Scarlet.

 

TripleB, you lost all believability when you called England's crime rate higher than the US one. The United States have BY FAR the highest crime rate anywhere in the Western world. Anybody who says otherwsie lives in denial.

And why are we not supposed to voice concern about Dubya's pre-kindergarten grammar? You say it isn't important. Why? I thought the American president was supposed to be a brilliant leader, a great mind that is supposed to lead the greatest nation God has ever seen? An idol for Millions?
So why do you elect somebody that's clearly not even adequate?

 

The United States have BY FAR the highest crime rate anywhere in the Western world. Anybody who says otherwsie lives in denial.

Well, this is true, but I thought he was talking about street crime.

Though America, overall, has worst street crime than Britain (I believe), some areas of London (Brixton and some parts of the East End) have worse crime rates than anywhere in New York (Harlem, the Bronx, etc.)

- Scarlet.

 

Some crime rate comparisons I found on the web. If I find better ones I'll post them here

http://christianparty.net/japus.htm

http://www.neo-anime.org/mixed/jap/thejapanese.php


I also found a very interesting article that compares the USA with Germany

http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/us-d.html

this might be surprising to all you Americans who think that the USA have more freedom than European countries. The article comes to conclusion that everyday's freedom of speech is greater in Germany than it is in the USA. On the other hand you're not allowed to drive a truck in many German cities on a weekend. I actually like the last one

 

Article

"In all major crime categories except for murder and rape (where the figures are unreliable on both sides of the Atlantic), Britain now has higher crime rates. For robbery, assault, burglary, and auto theft, Britain is a worse place than the US. Even the gap in the murder rate has narrowed, falling from 10 times as many murders per head in the US as in Britain, to 6 times as many (due entirely to the fall in the US rate)."

 

Ah, here is the point: ACCORDING TO THE 60 MINUTES 2 report.....ENGLAND AND WALES DOES HAVE THE HIGHEST VIOLENT CRIME RATE THEN ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

I mean, that was from Dan Rather, which was pretty suprising.

Now, the US has MUCH more murders in our country, but the level of muggings, robberies, rapes, and other violent crimes in England and Wales dwarfs the US.

The statistic that was used was a 55.0 violent crime rate in England and Wales, and Dan Rather emphasised that English police have been so under pressure for results that they are underreporting crimes to make it look like it is less then what it is.

And the clip even had TOny Blair in Parliament saying that the level of street crime reached epidemic proportions when "it surpassed the United States".

Sorry, I saw it for myself on a credible news program, so I suggest you learn more about what you are talking about.

EDIT The comparison that was used on 60 MInutes was comparing England and Wale's level of violent crimes rate to that of Los Angeles, New York, and Chicago; and England and Wales was higher.

 

Sorry, TripleB - I looked only at murder rates. I'm sure you're right

 

crime rate? so what, is there a competition which country is the worst?

 

crime rates for US and UK

US
violence: 800/100,000
murders: 8/100,000
rapes: 36/100,000
thefts: 1145/100,000
trend: murder rates stable since 1965. violent crime and theft decreased 20% from 1991-1999, but took a sharp increase from 1999 to present.

UK
violence: 860/100,000
murders: 4/100,000
rapes: 14/100,000
thefts: 6062/100,000
trend: murder rates continue to drop since 1998. violent crime rates stable since 1992. theft continue to increase since 1998.

source: US census bureau 2001; UN statistical yearbook 2001

US is high on murders and rape, but the UK is high on violence (not by much though) and much more on thefts. did you guys know that australia has the highest rape rate of all the modern industrialized nations but the lowest theft and violent crime rates? i find that quite interesting.

cheers!

 

i believe that germany and the UK are both very powerful countries that the US would benefit most from to keep as allies. i find it sad that relations between germany and the US have soured a bit because of germany not wanting to join the war against iraq. however... the US maintains strong relations with saudi arabia despite the fact that the royal saudi family funds powerful extreme fundamenatist muslim groups (including al-qaeda) and that they have recently kept the channels between saudi arabia and iraq open. almost forgot to mention that saudi arabia recently refused to let the US use its bases in saudi arabia to stage campaigns against iraq. we really know how to choose our allies, don't we?

cheers!

 

Good post, Ewok; I had no idea that Australia had a serious rape problem.

 

rape rate in australia: 198/100,000

cheers!

 

The UK and Germany are much better allies than Saudi Arabia. The only reason why the US is civil with Wahabbi Arabia is because of oil.

 

that's exactly what i've been sarcastically trying to point out for quite some ages now. there are many, however, who still believe that this issue isn't about oil. ahh well! c'est la vie!

cheers!

 

If it is not about oil, then what could it be about? I think those who deny it is because of oil are only fooling themselves. If the US were serious about going after states that sponsor terrorism, then Wahabbi Arabia would have to be high on the list.

 

And where were those stats derived from>

The stats used on the 60 Minutes 2 broadcast I am going to take at a much higher face value then anything anybody here brings up.