Saga Ghosting & Life After Death (Spoilers for CW: The Lost Missions, nonspoiler? speculation on the ST)

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Mar 9, 2014.

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  1. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    No, I mean the part where Bouzereau quotes Ben as telling Vader that if turns back to the light side, he will (upon death) pass through the netherworld and Ben will prevent him from fading into the Force. This (the passing through part), if I recall, is unmentioned in MoROTJ. Though the process as described by Bouzereau makes sense, I can't tell how much detail the actual script goes into.
  2. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    That ended up on the Yoda arc, where Qui-Gon explains what he can and can't do (due to his incomplete training) and how he learned the ability. In fact, I find it very interesting that almost everything that has been hinted at by Lucas regarding this issue was shown in that arc.

    Qui-Gon also speaks of Yoda being chosen, like he was before him (by the Force?). That could explain why Anakin was able to become one with the Force due to being the Chosen One without any training.

    The supposed dialogue that was going to be recorded is on the Blu-ray deleted scenes. But yes, he was injured at the time (although they could have asked Liam to record the line with his recent voice work for TCW).
    Last edited by Alexrd, Mar 13, 2014
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Could you detail? I've only seen the middle episode of the arc.
  4. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Shouldn't this be in Star Wars TV?
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    So far this is the relevant stuff in the Rinzler book I've found:

    BEN: There is no entrance to the netherworld through the dark side. You know very little of its powers.

    BEN: My need to stay in the netherworld has been resolved. Your father turned to the good side and I was able to disrupt his journey.

    The disrupted journey referred to above would be the same thing.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 13, 2014
  6. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Right, I just meant that the exact mechanics of it don't seem to be laid out in exposition. Does everyone (on the light side) pass through the netherworld? Or only Jedi? Do 'muggles' just melt directly into the larger cosmic Force? If what Bouzereau says is actually in the script, then that seems to add a detail that the lines Rinzler quotes don't quite come out and say.

    Though it does seem, as per the Yoda arc, that the netherworld is the space between life and death (the Force Priestesses say something similar).

    How do Sith spirits (like Bane in the Clone Wars episode) relate to this? Perhaps really there is no path OUT of the netherworld, meaning that they're stuck there? But then, they wouldn't 'lose identity' by joining the Force as Ben warns Vader... but clearly this has all been modified since 1981 anyway.

    And...

    I don't think so, because while it's recently been brought to the fore in the TV series, it's something that clearly developed over the course of the previous films, and may very well play a part in the upcoming films too.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Mar 13, 2014
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Well, that is a good question, but neither Bouzereau nor the Rinzler book address it in the quotes cited here, since the relevant passages are just about Anakin.
  8. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    I personally find the introduction of "Sith spirits" to a Lucas-approved level of canon to be a much more striking feature of the Yoda arc (in regard to the whole Force afterlife question, anyway) then the priestesses were. Up to this point I'd always taken them for something that was too embedded in the EU to retcon out of it now, but not really in keeping with Lucas's conception of Force metaphysics and thus unlikely to survive into the new canon.
  9. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Personally, I had a model that kinda worked like this: When creatures die, their existence continues as part of the ambient Force. They become part of the flow of the universe ("I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"), but they can't quite affect things directly in the material world ("I cannot interfere"). And anyway their wider view probably diminishes a lot of their desire to affect things anyway (they might have larger concerns with destiny, time, etc.). Light siders are generally at peace with this kind of existence (I imagined them taking a pretty wu wei method in life, and it would be the same in death). But dark siders are all about using the Force to control the world around them. Simply merging into the Force isn't 'good' enough for them, which is why, once they become spirits, they constantly try to find workarounds to the ghosting rules (imbuing themselves in talismans or specific places, possessing one body after another, etc).

    The prequels and the Making Of background material seems to show that Lucas has a very different view of how this is supposed to work. And I think you're right; Sith spirits seem like they don't quite fit into what he's doing (Obi-Wan even says there's no passage to the netherworld through the dark side in one of the drafts of ROTJ). Are there any details regarding the Darth Bane spirit in the Yoda episodes? Are there other spirits, or anything else relevant?
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Mar 14, 2014
  10. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    Yoda tells Bane that he is dead and what he (Yoda) sees before him is no more than an illusion, which banishes the manifestation. And the episode reiterates that the Sith see nothing beyond the physical realm. But it definitely appears that there is some enduring, supernatural evil presence on Korriban/Moraband.

    I think possibly what appears in the episode are not "Sith spirits" as such, but the dark side energy of the planet itself taking on a form from Yoda's mind. The main threat of the episode isn't any lingering ghosts on Moraband, it's Sidious reaching out through a Sith ritual. And the idea of a place being strong with the dark side goes all the way back to the cave on Hoth (which, incidentally, the arc implies a much different origin for than the EU version).

    So in the end, maybe it's not that much of a change from the previous implications about how Lucas saw Sith and the afterlife after all. But it is interesting to see that part of the EU making it to the screen.

    Your model, incidentally, seems to be how the EU sees things. But it is indeed pretty clear that's not how Lucas ever saw it.

    Edit: Interestingly, an illusion drawn from his memories is also what Anakin apparently believed the apparition of Qui-Gon on Mortis was.
    Last edited by Vthuil, Mar 14, 2014
  11. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    I would suggest to see the episodes themselves (it's really worth it), but if you can't:

    "I'm a manifestation of the Force, a Force that consists of two parts: living beings generate the Living Force, which in turns powers the wellspring that is the Cosmic Force."

    "I cannot [show myself]. My training was incomplete. All energy from the Living Force, from all things that have ever lived, feeds into the Cosmic Force, binding everything and communicating to us through the midi-chlorians. Because of this, I can speak to you now."

    "I have been tasked with guiding you forward. There can be many outcomes but your path is clear, Yoda. You have been chosen, as I was before you."

    "You will learn to preserve your life force, and so, manifest the consciousness which will allow you to commune with the living after death."

    Yoda calls those specters nothing but illusions that feed from fear. It's interesting to note that the group of specters that surround Yoda were able to leave repercussions in the Force, but only because Yoda was there. They also state that nothingness awaits after death, which means they haven't exactly survived their outcome.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Mar 14, 2014
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  12. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    I would also second watching the episodes yourself. There's a lot more discussion fodder in there then just the Force Ghosting stuff, in fact - for instance, I find one bit can be read as a hint that Anakin was the Other.

    Note that the Yoda arc proper consists of "Voices", "Destiny", and "Sacrifice". "The Lost One" (the Sifo-Dyas episode) helps set it up but isn't really part of it, despite what some official statements indicated.
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    You mean Dagobah.

    I hope.

    More likely that was a reference to Anakin's offspring. For Anakin to be the "Other" someone else had to be the first. Who's that?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 14, 2014
  14. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Luke. The Other is just a name for a notion Yoda has that Luke may not be the last hope once he leaves Dagobah. If Yoda has had unique-to-him visions of the future, then maybe he could be speculating on Anakin coming back to the light side (the Emperor, in one of the drafts of ROTJ, also says something similar, referring to Anakin as 'another Skywalker' - this, even though Leia had already been established in that version as the sister).
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Mar 14, 2014
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    That was AOTC. Neeson had injured himself while riding his motorcycle and was laid up in his apartment. Lucas and I assume Ben Burtt had worked out a recording session from his apartment where he was supposed to say, "No, Anakin, no. Don't do it!" which was the line in the script and the novelization. But then it was changed to using his saying, "Anakin!" from TPM when Maul is about to run him down and the "NOOO!" which sounds nothing Neeson. It is attributed to Qui-gon, but it left a long running confusion over to whether that was Neeson or not. By the time of ROTS, well, in 03, I think he was back on his feet. He was when he did "Batman Begins" in 04. The Yoda/Qui-gon scene being cut, that wasn't until 05 that it was confirmed.

    It's hard to say with the films alone. Going by them alone, it seems as if the Jedi tried to limit themselves because they were afraid of what lies beyond their limited scope of the Force, since the Force relies so much on emotion and the lack thereof. Once they got involved in the state of galactic affairs, they lost sight of the bigger picture. The EU gives a more detailed take with the Jedi having been ghosting for years, but one of the last major conflicts took the Jedi down pretty far and it could be speculated that as a result, what was left of the Order had like it does in Luke's time, lost so much of the older teachings, that they had forgotten much. In other words, when they started over again, certain aspects were no longer known to them. In the "Jedi Apprentice" series, Qui-gon had an attachment to a fellow Jedi and when she died, he began falling towards the dark side until he heard her voice stopping him. This then piqued his curiosity as to how it was possible. Which in turn lead to his discovery of the Whills and the Shaman who taught him how to retain his identity. "The Clone Wars: The Lost Missions" seems to be going in the same general direction with Yoda's journey, though it is different now from before.

    Which is different from what "Dark Empire" implied with the ancient Sith that Palpatine interacts with, as well as his own beliefs. Though Freedan Nadd and Exar Kun had apparently done something different in order to be what they were.
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  16. DBZGTKOSDH Jedi Knight

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    Wait, if Qui-Gon can't turn into a Force Ghost, how does he appear as one in The Clone Wars? I haven't seen the episodes, but I've seen a picture of him as a Force Ghost.

    Wookiepedia also mentions that Luke only burned Vader's armor, and his body did indeed disappear. Source?
    Last edited by DBZGTKOSDH, Mar 14, 2014
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    That doesn't make much sense. From the perspective of Yoda in the episode, Anakin hasn't turned yet, so there is as yet no need for "another" Skywalker. If the vision is, on the other hand, to be taken as representative of Yoda's future point of view in TESB/ROTJ, the Other reference can be taken as referring to Leia just as it ultimately does in the OT. It seems pointless for TCW Yoda to be encouraged by a vision to pin his hopes on Anakin, since that's what he and the Jedi have already been doing at that point. Anakin is the existing Skywalker.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 14, 2014
  18. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    You're both overcomplicating my point, which was that the vision featuring Vader breathing at the same time as we hear Yoda saying "there is another Skywalker" felt kind of suggestive. It was more one of those things I mentioned as being worth pondering on then anything else.

    I don't think TCW Yoda interpreted the vision as much of anything, it was too vague.
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  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The planet Mortis is extremely strong with the Force and it is here that even one not as accomplished as Qui-gon, can be seen as well as heard.
  20. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Catering to fanboys of Qui-Gon Jinn.
  21. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    I recall Rick McCallum confirming that he wasn't able to record his dialogue for RotS due to an accident.

    He was having a vision of his death and "there is another Skywalker" were his last words in RotJ. The episode guide confirms this.

    It shouldn't be too much to ask to actually contribute to the discussion.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Mar 15, 2014
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The accident was in 2000. So unless there was another one, I think he might be getting things confused.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Mar 15, 2014
  23. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I agree. @Garrett Atkins - your fly-by swipes are getting extremely tiresome. If you have nothing to contribute, don't bother posting, or you can have a vacation from the boards.
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  24. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Indeed. Unfortunately I can't get the exact quote because the page was not archived, since it was on the old SW.com forums.
  25. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    What? I down even see what I've done wrong.
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