Girls, When you see Anakin turn to Vader...

This is one of my problems with Anakin's actions. Heard of the "you too" fallacy? Because one person does something bad does not justify another person doing the same thing. What this means is that two wrongs do not make a right. Of course, once you look at all of the reasons behind the actions, then it becomes greyer.

Anakin was provoked and this makes his actions less black on white, but as an adult who has the ability to be good, WAS good before, and does know right from wrong, he is still responsible for his actions. So they're still not justified even though they're understandable. And I do know how it feels to experience loss and anger at someone and hatred, so there's no need to get personal with me, as no one here knows what happened in my life to begin with. And I'm not saying that it's hard to keep from doing something destructive when you're in a rage. It's very hard, and feeling the anger, as Padme said, is normal and makes one human. But the mark of someone who isn't evil (or isn't a child mentally) is that person not "giving in" to one's anger by doing something destructive, and the worst way one can deal with it is by taking a life. Taking the life of the people who did the murder might be excusable (though it might simply continue a cycle of violence, but let's assume it won't). Taking the lives of people who did not directly cause the death, even if they might've actually prevented it (though they may also have been sacrificing their lives if they did try to prevent it) makes it worse. Taking the lives of children is hovering around as bad as one can get.

Nowhere did I say that Anakin is one-dimensional; I've been weighing the different sides of him this whole time, and his various choices. If I can do this with Anakin, I can do this with the Tuskens too, but in this paragraph I won't (heck, I never even said that it being ritual makes it okay; I was only saying the opposite). The fact that Anakin felt remorse afterwards does show something about his character (and the fact that he should show remorse shows that there is something wrong with killing all those people). The Tuskens who killed his mother, and I won't assume anything about their intentions for now, were evil. Anakin's anger was understandable, his wish to kill them was understandable, and they did indeed deserve death, so he wasn't entirely evil. However, the kids weren't evil, and he killed them too. Also he killed them without bothering to think about it, even though he should know better. He's in a grey area right now, but it's only turning darker and darker. He did need to be told that he's only human for being angry; what he didn't need to be told is that he's only human for killing the children of his mother's murderers. There's a huge difference between killing and feeling like killing. In one way the children are all living; in the other way, they're all dead. We see Anakin take that step.

Of course, I also partially blame the Jedi Council for not teaching him properly to deal with his anger. They taught that it's bad to feel it, not that it's okay to feel it as long as you deal with it properly. But I still believe that an adult, especially Anakin who did not grow up isolated and knew what was right and wrong, is responsible for his actions. If he wasn't such an adult, then he couldn't become a truly evil guy later.

 

They don't seem to be living as equals in Tusken society so, to a large extent, they are helpless.

We weren't living as equals under U.S. law until we finally stood up for ourselves and did something about it--and we still aren't living as complete equals because some women are still content to let men use them as doormats and baby machines.

It is up to these Tusken women to stand up to the Tusken men. That is not to say they deserved to die, but that is to say that I don't have nearly the sympathy for them that I do for Shmi.

 

We weren't living as equals under U.S. law until we finally stood up for ourselves and did something about it

And that didn't happen until we were a considerably less savage society than the Tusken type was. Nor were women exactly isolated, and many of them had access to knowledge of various ideas and philosophies, if not well-educated. I don't think Tusken women had that option as well as we did, and I doubt that any of them that did start getting ideas would simply be put away in jail. Any revolution could have been stamped out, quickly.

--and we still aren't living as complete equals because some women are still content to let men use them as doormats and baby machines.

Such is brainwashing. They don't even know that they have other options.

It is up to these Tusken women to stand up to the Tusken men. That is not to say they deserved to die,

We have agreement there, more or less.

but that is to say that I don't have nearly the sympathy for them that I do for Shmi.

I probably won't, either, however I simply do not know what's going on in their minds. All I can do is conjecture. They could have helped torture Shmi, they could have known it was wrong and not done anything about it, they could have been brainwashed and not had any conception of this being wrong, and they could have not known about it. At this point I have some sympathy for them and I think that murdering them was murder and wrong, but I can't make judgments about how innocent they were.

 

Ok the one problem that I'm seeing here is that people are trying to use real life in a fantasy movie.

Me I keep the Tuskens in the fantasy relem. For there movies they where shown doing things to hurt people. Because of that it is really hard for me to feel any thing for them. If GL wanted me or any one else to feel something for them he would have shown the Tuskens doing something other then killing and hurting people.

So like Palpatine and other bad guys in the SW movies they got what was coming. Before any one says that is sick do you think that way in real life. I will say no what I think about a character is a fantasy movie is what I think about that fantasy character.

I keep real life with real life.
I keep fantasy with fantasy.

 

Good point, anidan. I think we have to keep in mind how Lucas is trying to present this scene. We are supposed to be sympathetic towards Anakin but at the same time recognize that what he did was wrong and the first step towards the Dark Side. We are not supposed to be sympathetic towards the Tuskens--if we were, they would have been portrayed similar to the Ewoks, rather than attacking someone in every scene they're in. My personal opinion is that people go out of their way to sympathize with the Tuskens simply because they hate Anakin.

 

We are supposed to be sympathetic towards Anakin but at the same time recognize that what he did was wrong and the first step towards the Dark Side.

Quite so.

[/i]We are not supposed to be sympathetic towards the Tuskens[/i]

Then why were Anakin's actions wrong?

My personal opinion is that people go out of their way to sympathize with the Tuskens simply because they hate Anakin.

Is it fair then to say that you're going out of your way to defend Anakin simply because you're an Anakin lover? No. Don't be so unfair to people who don't agree with you; you'd be simply seeing this in black and white. We shouldn't be treated this way any more than you should.

Also it's weird you should make a blanket statement like that in general, but also after I've tried to explain the very many things that affect my opinion of the whole deal. My belief that two wrongs don't make a right, that revenge is wrong, that Anakin was right to feel angry, that the guilty Tuskens deserved to die, but that I don't know who is so pure that they have the right to give them this punishment, whether Anakin had this right, and the various pros and cons. My posts are right here, you know. I don't see how one can just wave them away and give me one motive for having any sympathy for Tuskens. My many motives are right here, and sympathy isn't the only thing I have for them. I've agreed with you that the Tuskens who actually committed the crimes deserved being punished, just as you agreed with me that the children shouldn't have gotten it.

 

Anakin's actions were wrong because the Jedi only use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for aggression. Anakin used it for aggression.

That doesn't mean that I'm going to try to find some rational, understandable reason that the Tuskens tortured Shmi, because as far as I'm concerned, there is no understandable reason to torture an innocent woman to death.

 

That doesn't mean that I'm going to try to find some rational, understandable reason that the Tuskens tortured Shmi, because as far as I'm concerned, there is no understandable reason to torture an innocent woman to death.

Who said there is one? I only brought it up because if Anakin had an understandable reason for going in a rage, then maybe the Tuskens did too. It doesn't mean that the Tusken actions were okay, any more than Anakin's were. You might want to read some things over again and try and tell which questions and situations I brought up were actually hypothetical, and which weren't.

 

That doesn't mean that I'm going to try to find some rational, understandable reason that the Tuskens tortured Shmi, because as far as I'm concerned, there is no understandable reason to torture an innocent woman to death.

But the issue here is not about the Tusken men he killed (most of whom, undoubtably, are responsible for the deaths of a number of people), but about the innocent women and children. It is his killing of them which makes Anakin move towards outright evil. Killing all the men was terrible, yes, but it is his slaughter of innocents that, IMO, makes the guy a failed human being.

 

By focusing on the women and the children...who probably did not make up the majority of the Tuskens he killed...you make it sound like he went to a day care center and whacked them up for sport. That isn't what happened.

It was wrong for him to kill the women and the children. (I'm hard pressed to say it was wrong for him to kill the men.) It was the beginning of his path to the Dark Side. However, it does not make him Ted Bundy, Hitler, Palpatine, or any of the other pure evil villians in real life or the GFFA. There is a grey area here.

 

By focusing on the women and the children...who probably did not make up the majority of the Tuskens he killed

You can't confirm or deny that. And I'm pretty certain that the number of women and children would outnumber males in any given community.

you make it sound like he went to a day care center and whacked them up for sport. That isn't what happened.

No, I didn't.

However, it does not make him Ted Bundy, Hitler, Palpatine, or any of the other pure evil villians in real life or the GFFA.

No, that's right, he becomes them a couple of years later. My bad. What a nice fellow he is

 

He becomes Palpatine?

 

I'm not an "Ani-hater" by any means, but I think when he does become Vader I won't be all that unhappy. Don't get me wrong - it will be sad, knowing how far he's fallen and how he's been corrupted by evil, and how his circumstances will shape the galaxy. I do, however, separate the two parts of his character - the Anakin that he was and the Vader that he becomes. I don't think GL meant for us to like Vader (at least in the first film, anyway) and I don't think we'll like Anakin's progression in the next film. His fall is tragic, but when he adopts the mindset of Vader - well, Vader is scary!

Which brings me to some thoughts about what's been discussed above: the Tusken massacre. I think in that scene GL didn't mean for viewers to hate Anakin, but to begin to fear him, to see how his fall was coming. I also don't think GL meant for us to be entirely sympathetic with him. To an extent, we are, for he does lose his mother and he indeed shows remorse (and we do need to sympathesize with his character in order to be moved by his turn to the dark side, and I think GL accomplishes that). But still, he did something horrible, something that hints of what is to come, reminds us of the Vader we know from the earlier films.

I think I'll stop liking Anakin in that he becomes Darth Vader - an evil Sith - but mourn the loss of Anakin - who once was an honorable Jedi.

 

By focusing on the women and the children...who probably did not make up the majority of the Tuskens he killed...you make it sound like he went to a day care center and whacked them up for sport.

No. By focusing on the women and children, we are talking about the part of the massacre that had the worst effect on Anakin. The whole "day care" and "for sport" thing didn't come from us, you know. And I don't care how many or how few women or children there were. One being killed is already too much.

However, it does not make him Ted Bundy, Hitler, Palpatine, or any of the other pure evil villians in real life or the GFFA.

No; but once he started killing, it can be difficult for him to stop. At the time, he did have reason to feel angry. Maybe the Tuskens did too, before they created the ritual. We recognize the grey area here in regards to Anakin. Eventually the Tuskens got into the habit of killing, and they became cold-blooded killers. Anakin is now on this path too, and he will eventually become a cold-blooded, remorseless killer as well. This is why we condemn Anakin's actions, overall. There may have been some reason for it, but unfortunately it could only lead to more violence later, and it came at a terrible price for Anakin. That is, the beginning of the loss of his humanity. I said many times that there is a grey area, that there are many reasons and many motives going on, so not sure what the problem is here. We're both looking at the same situation, and I happen to have a bigger problem with Anakin's actions than you do. So? It doesn't mean I (or anyone else) don't have a problem with what the Tuskens did to Shmi (unless someone explicitly says so that they don't care about her; and where was that said?). We still all think that Anakin's actions had motives but led him to the Dark Side path, and we all think that what the Tuskens did was bad too. Delving into the various motivations of all the characters only shows that we DO think there is a grey area.

These problems, such as murdering, often begin in more "understandable" ways, then later they get worse and worse. My problem with Anakin is that, even though his hating the Tuskens was understandable and some of them did deserve to die, his actually acting on his feelings, and including innocent ones into the punishment, only served to push him toward the Dark Side.

 

upping this for more discussion.

I like seeing the two sides of this.

 

oh geez... you wouldn't if you were involved

 

Why is it almost every thread about Vader/Anakin seems to turn to the Tusken Massacre? There's a bunch of threads with that as the main topic around here somewhere.

As to the original question, I have no idea. I like the character of Anakin very much and I can put myself in his shoes (and Padme's) with many of the situations he's been in. I think that's what makes him so interesting. However, I have no idea what will happen in EPIII. Will he think he's doing the right thing? If that's the case, then I won't stop liking Anakin. I'll feel bad for him, I'll hate to see him go over to the darkness, but I also like Vader alot and it will (and already has, to some extent) make his character even more 3 dimensional. Any kind of character development is great. It will fill that hole that's been there, the 'why and how' of what Vader is.

 

I like seeing the two sides of this.

Oh, there are far more than two sides.