CT GL doesn't want Han to be a cold-blooded killer, but isn't Han justified when he shoots Greedo?

That's your opinion. And was that supposed to imply that his argument is less valid?

 

All opinions, including minority ones, are welcome. Let's keep them on the topic though.

 

It's not an opinion, it's a joke. We're on a forum about a space movie, please lighten up.

 

We're in a forum about a space movie, therefore I can't question your 'you're in the minority' comment? Oh right, a joke...

 

Well, to be fair, you *are* in the minority. However, that doesn't make your opinion any less valid.

 

I merely questioned the relevance of stating that someone is in the minority.

 

Han Shot First!!! The main issue with the changes is it turns Han Solo from being a bad ass in the original scene, to someone who is just lucky and dodged the bullet. Furthermore, it doesn't make sense for a character like Greedo who has I'm sure killed before to be such an awful shot. How can you miss someone from that close of a range? The original scene is how it should have been kept. Han Solo= BAD ASS

 

I like the scene in its original form, but if a change had to be made for the sake of making Han look "less cold-blooded" and more as though he acted in self-defence, then perhaps something like this would have worked better:

Han: Over my dead body.
Greedo: That's the idea. I've been looking forward to killing you for a long time.
Han: Yeah, I bet you have.
(Greedo extends his blaster towards Han's chest)
Greedo: So long, Solo...
(A close up of Han's eyes, a quick-raised eyebrow reveals recognition of what is about to happen unless he takes matters into his own hands. The camera pans back to a wider shot as Han fires his blaster through the table, killing Greedo before the Rhodian could fire)
Han: Dammit, Greedo.

 

To be honest, I think among casual viewers the majority opinion is: "I don't really care one way or another. Blu ray Jabba is fine and so is puppet Jabba."

It's only among bigger SW fans that people start getting strong opinions, and among them the majority probably like puppet Jabba more. Personally, I like 2009 blu ray Jabba slightly more than ROTJ Jabba. The 1997 Jabba looked nothing like him and looked too cartoony, but the 2009 Jabba looks like a real creature to me. The only thing that is slightly off is how he matches with Han at certain moments. For me, I prefer the 2009 blu ray Jabba over the original. The ROTJ Jabba is a great puppet, but it has these weird spots where swells and contracts, and to me, it looks clear that they were inflating and deflating something beneath his skin. That looked a little fake to me.

 

Couldn't agree more. I believe the actual majority doesn't even share their opinion online.

 

I'm one of those who doesn't really care about the change mainly because I wasn't around to see A New Hope before the Special Editions came out.

So it really came as a shocker to me how so many where still mad about it after all these years.

 

There was no need to have ever changed that scene. No matter how you look at it, Han was only defending himself. Being threatened to be killed or captured would do that to a person.

 

I'm back! Let's just pick this up where we left off, shall we?

You've said so a number of times, but Han still did not try to avoid a violent conclusion to their discussion. Not all the way. He could easily have said "Alright, let's go see Jabba now and I'll talk to him myself".
And I still did not say that Han should've tried running while they were sitting down.

He plays along with the intention of getting violent, yes.

Getting pissed off is no excuse for throwing peace out the window.

Han should exhaust all available, peaceful, options before resorting to violence. He may be making accurate guesses about Greedo's intentions, but they remain guesses until he makes sure. As it stands, he encourages Greedo's apparent stance because he doesn't want to waste any more time on him.
Again, this is completely in line with Han's personality. I understand why he does what he does. I just do not agree that his approach is the morally preferable one.

One might call it outright stupid.

Possible.

Again, he should exhaust all options. For example, not get all feisty and say "Over my dead body".

I'm not familiar enough with that show to respond to that

*sigh* Again, Greedo is not innocent.

Not to me.

Actually, the argument he made was that Han looked like a cold-blooded killer before the change.

So you equate a suspenseful talk over a table with a chase through corridors. Got it.

Jabba isn't in a bad mood, as evidenced by his behavior from the start of the scene.

 

Lulu_Mars --regarding your very first argument on the list (And because it's all I have time for at the moment): Han really couldn't just say "All right, let's go see Jabba together…." First off, because he really *didn't* have the money yet, he was bluffing. And second, he didn't have time to do that. He needed to get to the docking bay and take Luke and Obi Wan to Alderaan. A side trip to Jabba's palace (again, with NO money) would've been really stupid and dangerous on his part.

Part of Han's character is that he's a street-smart *survivor*. So Han did what he could in that scene to *survive*. And if he tried to settle for some "peaceful negotiations", that scene would've been a lot more boring, and Han Solo would not have been Han Solo.

 

So it's alright for him to end someone's life just because he lacks time and money?
If we're going to bring practicality into the equation, then maybe Han shouldn't have started working for gangsters in the first place. That kind of shady business is bound to bring you to tight spots like this one.

And yes, again, Han Solo is Han Solo because he behaves the way he does. I wouldn't have it any other way. We're still not discussing the entertainment value of the scene.

 

You keep overlooking one thing, Greedo STOPPED Han from going anywhere. He pointed a gun at him and forced him to sit down. The first thing Han says is that he was on his way to see Jabba. Greedo could instantly have said "Fine we'll go together." But he didn't. Instead he said that it was TOO LATE, that Jabba had put a price on Han's head and now Greedo would collect. That right there is enough to show that Greedo intends harm to Han. He wants to collect the bounty on Han's head.

He plays along and tries to reason with Greedo but prepares for the eventuality that Greedo won't listen. Which he doesn't and Han is left with one choice, die or shoot first.

Peace was thrown out the window the second Greedo came at Han with a gun.
If a guy breaks into a man' house, threatens him with a gun and says he will rape the man's daughter, I won't blame the man for getting angry.

Which he did, twice he attempted reason, both times it failed.
I don't think Han being a spineless doormat would really have helped.

Greedo said quite clearly that he is there to collect the price on Han's head, not much wiggle room there. He has a gun pointed right at Han and stops him from leaving, again pretty clear message.

Again, he did. Greedo started the hostile action, not Han. As I said before, any negotiation made at gunpoint is NOT peaceful.

Greedo sets the whole situation off, doesn't listen to reason and intends to kill Han. More than enough reason for Han to shoot in self-defense.

Again, Greedo says that it is too late to settle things with Jabba and that Jabba is FINISHED with Han. That says quite clearly that Greedo isn't interested in taking Han to Jabba. Plus the fact that Greedo stopped Han from going there. Greedo threatens Han with a gun, gloats that he has him and will collect the price on Han's HEAD. And says at the end that he has been looking forward to a dead Han for a long time. I don't know how much clearer it can be.

Han shoot in self-defense before and still does now. In both versions Han is getting his gun out and ready so clearly he intends to use it if he has to. The only difference is that Greedo gets of a shot a fraction of a second earlier than Han. Using deadly force when your life is threatened isn't "cold blood" to me. That is justifiable self-defense.

According to you, being threatened with a gun is not enough. Being told that the person with said gun intends to collect a bounty on your head and your death is the idea, is not enough. And actually getting shot at is still not enough. If Han wasn't justified in either version then he still is a "cold blooded killer" even in the new version. Which makes the change pointless.
To me, he never was because, as I hope that I made clear, he acts in self-defense.

Not just corridors, the two tech guys and troopers that enter the MF, the guy Han shoots in the control room above the MF, the guards in the prison, the TIE chasing after Luke etc.

All these show a clear characteristic in Han Solo, when dealing with armed opponents, he prefers to shoot first and not let the other guy get a shot in. And Greedo was an armed opponent that meant Han harm. So him shooting first fits perfectly with how he acts on the DS and later. Han cares about saving his own skin first and being justified is far, far down that list.

Or take ESB, there he shoots at Vader the second he sees him, but Vader didn't do anything.
According to how you say Han is, he should first have mooned Vader and said something insulting, "Oh look it is Dork Nerder." Just to piss Vader off and get him to try and kill Han so Han could then be justified in shooting him.

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Right, so he just put the price on Han's head as a little joke. Han owes Jabba money and he has been told that Jabba has put a big price on his head. Plenty of reason for Han NOT to act in a stupid and needlessly insulting manner. Han was worried about Jabba before he was told about the bounty, why would he be less worried now?

Bye for now.
Mr "Insert-Name-Here."

 

Well, I (and others) have already said a dozen or so times how I think it's self defense--therefore "justified"--so I didn't feel the need to rewrite that whole argument again. There's a very heavy implied threat to his life, Greedo stops him from leaving, therefore Han had no choice. But you saying that Han should go to Jabba with him, well that doesn't make much sense in any case--because Han *doesn't* have the money, and has no reason to believe that Jabba would just "let him go" if he went to him. It's not a practical (or safe) solution for him.

 

Han tried twice to reason with Greedo. Exhaust all options? He is a smuggler low life for crying out loud! Do you want his character arc neutered before it even started? He talked to him and didn't blow him away from the get go. What more do you want? Han from ROTJ onwards might have tried a couple more times in different ways but Han from ANH? He tried, that's all that matters. Kind of hard to negotiate peacefully with a gun pointing at you isn't it? Under duress isn't it? Han isn't an ordinary citizen that gives a hoot about the law. His journey to respectability has to start from somewhere. Sounds like people are holding Han to too high of societal expectations.

 

Han would've killed a somewhat defenseless person in ROTJ if there wasn't for Luke who stopped him.

 

Too many posts to respond to individually now, so I'll just write an all-encompassing reply:

It seems clear that none of us is going to convince anyone here, so I'll just try to sum up my thoughts on this before calling it quits.

First off, Han Solo is a great character that I wouldn't change for the world. He goes on an important journey, from selfish scoundrel to selfless, caring freedom fighter. The lessons he learns are important and therefore, it's important that he is who he is. He also stands for some of the most entertaining moments in the saga.

Second, because he is morally ambiguous, he sometimes makes questionable decisions, such as getting into a gunfight with Greedo when it may not have been needed.

Third, Greedo was the instigator, but that does not absolve Han of responsibility.

Fourth, Han has every right to defend himself when it's needed and once Greedo starts shooting at him, there's really not much else he can do but shoot right back. I mean, it's not like he can shield himself or just get up and leave. He has to blast his way out of there to save his neck.
However, he contributed to the escalating tension and he did so deliberately. That was unnecessary and may have prevented a less than fatal outcome. The truth is, we'll never know. All we can do is guess.

You ask me what Han was supposed to do; beg and grovel?
Well, yeah. If that's what it takes to settle the matter peacefully. You see, I believe that there are more important things in the world than pride. Peace, freedom, good health and joy, for starters.
If the survival of both Han and Greedo hinges on Han pleading with Greedo, saying "Listen, you don't have to kill me. What do I have to do? Just tell me", then that's what Han should do.
If Greedo still decides that Han must die, well, at least Han's given it a fair chance - and it will all be on Greedo.

That's pretty much what I think.

 

Han was supposed to beg and grovel to save his life? Please tell me you're not being serious? That's not his character. Would you if you were n that spot? Again, neutering. So he shouldn't have fired at the stormtroopers on the DS and instead let them all be taken in custody and not shoot at Vader at Cloud City and be taken into custody there? Who would respect Han if he did that? No idea what I would do personally if placed in that situation but he tried twice. That's more than times than needed imo. Wasn't a fair setting anyway. If you are threatened and you can fight back with not hitting an innocent bystander you should.

 

This is exactly why this discussion won't get us anywhere. You're not hearing me, because you single out one sentence from my post and ignore the rest, thereby missing the full picture.
I could explain my stance for the hundredth time, but it'll only be a waste of breath if you don't take it in.
See ya!

 

Han is a proud person. He is not the type to grovel and beg to save his life. He reasoned twice with Greedo. That should be more times than necessary in general and probably two times more than Han might have done. 3 strikes and your out. If Greedo wouldn't take the bait, he has no one to blame but himself. Greedo is going up against someone on the wrong side of the law. Does Han really give a hoot about peace and what not? Would anyone if they are threatened with a gun? The negotiations were not equal since Greedo had a gun visible. That to me means Greedo wasn't operating in good faith. Should he leave it to the officials? Wait for someone with a gun to show up and save him? It's Tatooine out in the Outer rim. No one is going to come to his aid. Its a rough world out there. Irl people might try to beg to save their lives but Han just doesn't seem the type. He's morally ambiguous so it doesn't bother me if he shoots Greedo then and there. Greedo wants to see him suffer under Jabba and have his ship taken. You really think Han wants to keep Greedo alive after that? He isn't a normal law-abiding citizen. He's a criminal smuggler. He's probably not going to care as much that someone dies as we would probably would if we were in the situation. Is it wrong? Perhaps but I've never lived the life style so I can't really comment on it. If someone threatened my family, I would get ticked too. I don't blame Han for getting grouchy. Greedo was threatening from the beginning of the confrontation. So Han was to be a saint in patience and serenity? He's human for crying out loud. He can't get defensive? Kind of hard keeping collected while having a gun being pointed at you and being threatened. So it's only okay to shoot when you've been shot at? That's an insanely risky gamble in practice. If you are visibly threatened, how is that not justified? Han was being truthful about the money part but Greedo didn't like that. Greedo wasn't that accepting.

 

But as you said, Han is a scoundrel, a smuggler and a criminal. He operates from a cesspit of scum and villany. How long would a saint last in those quarters? Would he have any respect if he begged for his life? He is a morally grey character that changes into a more good person, so him going far out of his way to avoid violence would work counter ot that character arc. I don't think Han is one to look for fights or that he goes around killing people for no reason. He looks after himself and if his life is threatened he will use lethal force if need be.

Violence was needed because Greedo came at Han with a gun, didn't listen and and his plan was for Han to die. Again, Greedo said that he was after the bounty of Han's HEAD. That quite often means your death. Han tried TWICE to reason with Greedo but Greedo didn't listen. So ALL the blame lies on Greedo. He started this, didn't listen and was a fool to not keep both of Han's hands in sight.
Han did more than enough to avoid bloodshed.

Since Han's little outburst came AFTER he had twice tried to reason with greedo and Greedo had made it clear that he wasn't having any of it, then it changes nothing. Han would now be aware that Greedo wasn't interested in any kind of a deal or to take Han to Jabba, and after his final remark it is very clear, Greedo wants Han dead so kill or be killed.

The film makes it abundantly clear that Greedo is after the bounty on Han's head, Greedo SAYS this.
Han tries twice to reason with Greedo to no avail and Greedo has been threatening Han with a gun the whole time. I think we do know what Greedo was after, a dead Han. Which is pretty much what Greedo says at the end.

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Han has already given it a fair chance and Greedo didn't listen.

As I said above, such behaviour from Han would be totally out of character compared with how he acts throughout the rest of the film or through the whole OT. Begging and groveling isn't in his character. He can try to smooth talk or charm but not getting on his hands and knees. Given his line of work and the kind of people he works with, such behaviour could very well be seen as a weakness and could lead to him getting killed.

He tried to avoid violence but it failed so he shot before getting shot at, that fits his character.
If you are threatend with a gun and you have twice attempted reason but gotten nothing, then you are perfectly justified in shooting first.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Greedo shot first. That is a fact, IU. Even so, I would like to see it reversed.

Pre-emptive strikes are a legitimate form of self-defence where the threat is imminent, there are no alternative courses of action, and the response is reasonable and proportionate.

Now, we might split hairs over whether there were alternate courses of action open, but the fact that it is even arguable suggests than Han shooting first would not make him a cold-blooded killer, given he was undoubtedly being threatened and given the heat of the moment.

It is clear that Greedo was about to kill Han. Han said "over my dead body", to which Greedo, while pointing a blaster at Han, responded "that's the idea". In other words, Greedo was about to shoot Han. He posed an imminent threat of death. The response was proportionate - one life for another. Furthermore, even if Greedo were not about to kill Han, Han clearly believed Greedo was about to shoot (and this was not an unreasonable belief, even if it were ultimately wrong), which is why he shot first (originally). Was Han supposed to wait until Greedo said (even more) explicitly, "I am going to kill you now, so you may want to shoot me first"? As has been said above, Han tried reasoning twice. Admittedly, Han displayed a remarkable (and frankly preternatural) ability to duck Greedo's blaster bolt, but it was not reasonable to think that he could do so again. He could not fly (and no help was coming), so he had to fight.

The fact that Han may arguably have had some prior fault ("over my dead body") did not change the fact that, in the moment when he did (originally) shoot, there was an imminent threat. He could not refrain from shooting simply because he provoked the situation.