CT GL doesn't want Han to be a cold-blooded killer, but isn't Han justified when he shoots Greedo?

Yanksfan: I know what you mean. I know I can be read as a bit hot-headed (and sometimes I am), but I mean no disrespect to anyone.
That's a good question! I haven't actually thought about it that way, but yes, if you're fired upon and there's no other way out, then I guess it's alright to shoot in self-defense. If you act instinctively, then what can you do?
Although I do think that someone who's being trained to handle violent situations should be taught to deal with them in as non-violent ways as possible, without putting bystanders at risk of course. I mean, if you're supposed to work against violence, then what logic is there in using violence as anything but a last resort?
Regarding Han's situation, I think the best thing to do once it got violent would've been to wound Greedo and disarm him. Han's a great shot and he could've hit Greedo in the arm.

 

I think Han's justified either way, which is why the arguments that the new scene hurts Han's redemptive arc make no sense. Very few people agree that Han murdered Greedo in cold blood in the original scene, so there would have been nothing to redeem. The only difference is that the new scene gives Han less "cool" points. And I agree that the new scene is less cool. It didn't need to be changed. It hurts the scene.

But Han is still pretty cool. He manages to unholster his blaster, flick the safety off, and aim it at Greedo's chest without Greedo noticing. Really, the spirit of the scene remains relatively intact. Moreso than people act like.

 

But take the very start of the conversation. Greedo asks Solo where he is going and Solo say he is going to Jabba.

Here Han gives Greedo a chance. Greedo could have said "Good, lets go see him together."
But he didn't, instead he pushed Solo down and kept the gun at him. So Greedo stopped Han from going. Also Greedo wants to collect the bounty on Han's head, he doesn't seem interested in taking Han to Jabba. Which, based on the later scene, he was told to do.

[/QUOTE]

There is a difference between showing no fear and being stupidly insulting. Han doesn't applogize for shooting Greedo and doesn't mince his words to Jabba. But walking on Jabba goes beyond that.
In human terms it would be like if you are laying down and some guy steps on both your legs. That is going to hurt.
Han said earlier "This could really save my neck." So he knows that Jabba could have him killed. Under those circumstances it is not wise to upset him. Han shouldn't grovel or beg but neither should he pointlessly antagonize Jabba either.

@Lulu_Mars

Han is justified IN MY OPINION and one of the reason why is because under most laws this would be self-defense. The word justified is in part connected to legal matters and looking at it legally, Han acts in self-defense.

You said this:

You made the argument that IF Han really wanted to resolve this peacefully then he should wait and make a run for it.
My response is that this would almost certainly get him killed and thus is pretty stupid.

Also Han tries TWICE to placate Greedo.

See my answer to Iron_lord above. Han clearly said that he was going to see Jabba but Greedo STOPPED him. Greedo could have imideatly have said, "Lets go and see him together and you can tell him this." But Greedo instead forces Han to sit down and keeps the gun pointed at him. Han tries a SECOND time to reason with Greedo but Greedo still isn't having any of it.
Greedo was after the bounty of Han's head and he was taking his time, savoring the moment before he get's to kill Han. He has been looking forward to that, he clearly says so.
So nothing Han could have said would have stopped this.

To me, the scene is VERY clear that this is exactly the case and Greedo's last words leave no room for doubt in my opinion. He directly says that he has been looking forward to kill Han for a long time.
These aren't the words of someone that regretfully is forced to do something he doesn't want. These are the words of someone that wants and intends to kill someone and is enjoying every moment of it.

Well it seems that you have been blaming Han several times in this thread, that all this is all his fault.
Greedo starts the whole situation, he stops Han from leaving, he points a gun at him and then threatens to kill him. Han tries TWICE, two times, to get Greedo to see reason but Greedo isn't having any of it. How far should Han have to go? Beg and grovel, lick Greedo's boots?

If one person is assulted by some thug and the thug pulls a gun and threatens to kill this person but this person is able to shoot the thug before he can make good on his threat. Then I totally disagree that both are guilty. One person was attacked and his/her life threatened and they responded with deadly force in self-defense.
Or say that the thug starts to insult this person parents, calling his/her mother a **** or some such. If this person gets angry at that remark and says "Don't say a word about my mother." That, to me, isn't a provocation from this person. The thug is again the one who is doing the provocation.

If your position is that lethal force is never, ever justified then you are welcome to it but I don't agree with it.

Greedo is the one who starts this whole thing, he has a gun pointed at Han the whole time, he doesn't listen to reason and ends by saying he is going to kill Han. In my opinion, Han was left with no other option and he tried twice to talk Greedo out of this but Greedo didn't listen.
Greedo would know how much Han cares about his ship so he probably mentioned the MF in order to rile Han up even more.

Since what you talked about are only what you read into the scene and nothing more I simply disagree with it and why, that isn't wasn't part of how the scene was filmed. Han doesn't keep his eyes focused on Greedo's gun, he looks away at least twice. And to me it seems that he looks Greedo in the face and not down on his gun.
He gets his gun out, hidden by his leg and boot and prepares to use it.
And Han isn't really in a good position to wound Greedo, he shoots from below the table and wounding Greedo would also be quite risky since Greedo still has his gun pointed at Han. So he might shoot in pain.

If Han is still not justified then why alter this scene? It changes nothing.
You said before that it fits Han's character to provoke a situation and then shoot. This is incorrect as on the DS he several times shots imperials before they can shoot or even draw their guns. So his character is one that prefers to shoot first and don't prefer to wait before the enemy has a chance to kill him. So from this it makes perfect semse that he would shoot Greedo before Greedo can make good on his threat.

When he comes and saves Luke over the DS. he didn't let those TIE's get the first shot in, he blew one away before they even knew he was there.

Again putting a price on someone's head isn't my idea of good mood. Also Jabba says that he can't make exceptions, even for Han. Han said earlier that the money he would get from Luke and Obi-Wan could really save his neck. So he knows that Jabba could easilly have him killed.
The scene works ok except him walking on top of Jabba. This was unavoidable in some respects and doesn't destroy the scene but from a character point of view it doesn't make much sense.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The line "You can tell that to Jabba" - does imply that, if Han had said "OK, I will" then Greedo would have escorted him to Jabba rather than shooting him.

Even "Over my dead body" "That's the idea" may have to do with

"I've been looking forward to Jabba killing you for a long time"

rather than

"I've been looking forward to personally killing you for a long time."

 

That's true. If Han hadn't been so combative, I think Greedo may have simply taken Han to speak with Jabba. And as we see later, Jabba was actually willing to give Han one last chance, so Han could probably have resolved the situation without killing anybody.

Then again, maybe Greedo was just B.S.'ing and looking for any excuse to shoot Han dead.

 

Jabba threatens to put a price on Han's head in the docking bay scene - odd if he's already "put a price on your head so large you won't be able to go near a civilised system" - though he could have suspended the bounty after their conference.

 

But again, Greedo stopped Han from leaving and Han said he was going to see Jabba. So if Greedo was ordered or considered taking Han to Jabba, why didn't he do that at the start? Instead he forced Han to sit down and rejected every explanation and chance that Han gave him.

Greedo said "It is too late" and "Jabba's through with you", both of which indicate that Jabba isn't interested in explanations or is trying to work something out. He wants Han dead. Or at least that seems what Greedo thinks Jabba wants.
Greedo's jab about the MF I also think was him provoking Han. Greedo would know how much Han cared about his ship so throwing that in Han's face would only serve to make Han angry and Greedo knows it.

[/QUOTE]

But what he says in the film is:

So Greedo is the one who has been looking forward to kill Han for a long time. And now he can do and even get paid for it.

It is a slight inconsistency between the two scenes. Greedo says that Jabba has already put the price on Han's head and Jabba isn't interested in making any deal with Han. The Jabba scene instead shows that Jabba is willing to give Han a chance but if he doesn't deliver THEN he'll put a rice on his head.
Possibly the Greedo scene was rewritten when Lucas figured that the Jabba scene might not work.

It is also possible that Greedo misinterpreted what Jabba had said. That Jabba was thinking about putting a price on Han's head but had not yet done so. Or Greedo deliberately misjudged what Jabba said so that he could kill Han.
Either way, Greedo wants to kill Han over taking him to Jabba.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I thought he said:

"I've been looking forward to this for a long time"

 

A lot of this comes from the discrepancies between the shooting script, which the novelisation was directly based on, and the rewritten Greedo dialogue shot in pickups after it was decided that the Jabba scene was to be deleted. For all intents and purposes, what Jabba said to Han was then given to Greedo.
Only after the Jabba scene was restored for the SE did these contradictions really emerge - I'm guessing that Greedo's dialogue wasn't even considered when LFL decided to restore the Jabba scene for 1997.

 

Yes you are right, the line in the script was wrong.
Still given the rest of the dialogue I think it is clear that Greedo intends to kill han there and then and that is what he has been looking forward to. What would be the alternative? Take Han to Jabba and let him kill Han?
Why then did Greedo stop Han from going to Jabba? Greedo was after the money on Han's head.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Because, if Han goes to Jabba without being restrained in some way by Greedo, Greedo cannot claim any "taken alive" bounty.

 

But Han is on his feet when Greedo stops him and pushes him back. Han says that he is going to Jabba to which Greedo could have said "Fine we'll go together to see Jabba." And walk away with Han at gunpoint. He can then deliver an alive Han to Jabba. So Greedo has an opening right away to take Han to Jabba but doesn't take it.
Instead he said that it was too late and Jabba has now put a price on Han's head. He also offers Han to give the money to him and then he might forget that he saw him. So it seems that bringing Han to Jabba was not a priority to Greedo.
Then he says that Jabba is through with Han and he of no further use to him.

If the reward is for Han dead or alive then Greedo could figure that it is much harder to get Han alive to Jabba as when they are walking Han would have many chances to slip away or do something. If Greedo instead kills him and brings word back to Jabba that Han is dead then that is much easier.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Yup - even if the live bounty is higher than the dead one, as is usual with bounties - there's still a "sure thing vs risky option" calculus.

 

I guess.

It would be pretty stupid if he'd tried to run while they were still sitting down, yes, but again, that's not what I said.

The fact remains that he flips him off at the merest mention of his ship. He's just not a negotiator.

No. He says that he's been looking forward to "this", meaning Han's death. He does not say that he intends to do it himself.
Nitpicking, yes, but it seems like we're playing the nitpicking game here.
Either way, Greedo says these words right after Han has closed the door on nonaggressive negotiations. Again, he wasn't trying very hard.

Then you should have another look at what I wrote. In that quote, I clearly state that they are both guilty.

Do you remember quoting me when I said that shooting Greedo is justified if it's been made clear that there's no other way out? I hope you do, 'cause I don't want to have to go through every little detail of this debate twice per post.

Poor Han. People always tease him about that ship.
He should tend to that sore spot.

Is it impossible to keep track of something if you don't look straight at it?
Anyway, I've already strayed from that argument, since I'm not really sure whether Greedo fired a warning shot, panicked or just plain sucked.

Apparently, he knew where to shoot to kill. I think he knew where to shoot if he'd wanted Greedo to survive.

That's a different debate.

Entirely different situations.

The price was already on Han's head. Jabba didn't put it there in that scene.

Let's agree to disagree on that one, shall we?

 

To be fair to Han, besides his apparent love of his ship, it's also literally his only real possession of any worth. It's where he lives and how he makes his living. Without his ship, he'd be utterly screwed.

Yeah, but if Han didn't shoot to kill, there's no reason to think Greedo wouldn't have just shot *him* dead after being injured. Shooting to kill was really the only viable option. Too many things could of gone wrong the other way. Heck, the other way might've resulted in an all-out shootout in the cantina, and then innocent bystanders could've been hurt.

 

Fair point. He couldn't hit Greedo's right arm from that angle, anyway.

Well, my main point stands: He could've tried harder to avoid bloodshed - and yes, so could Greedo, but this thread is about Han's actions, so...

EDIT: Regarding the ship, I do understand that it's Han's life and livelyhood. If he'd been diplomatic about it, though, he'd just have let it slide for the moment.

 

This is what you said;

Greedo stopped him from leaving even when Han said he was going to see Jabba. Greedo could have said "Fine, we'll go see him together." Also at no point does Greedo say that Jabba ordered him to bring Han to him. Greedo is after the bounty on Han's head, he says this very clearly.
It is pretty obvious that Greedo isn't interested in taking Han to Jabba. He wants him dead.

Han does in fact play along, he keeps Greedo talking while getting his gun out. When Greedo makes it clear that a dead Han was his plan all along, Han realizes that it is either kill or be killed and he chooses the former.

He did manage to negotiate a deal with Jabba. And again, Greedo has a gun pointed right at Han. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

First, Greedo stopped Han from going to Jabba so it is doubtful that he intends to bring Han there. Second, walking an alive Han there would be risky since Han would have many chances to slip away or do something. So Greedo would instead kill Han right there and bring word of his death to Jabba.
Third, Greedo closed the door to nonaggressive negotiations when he came at Han with a gun. Any negotiation made at gun point isn't nonaggressive.
Fourth, just how many chances do you expect Han to give Greedo? Twenty, fifty? Should Han beg and grovel for his life, lick Greedo's boots? Tatooine and the cantina is a rough place, that is pretty clear. Greedo pulls a gun on Han, forces him to sit down and threatens his life. Greedo is the aggressor here and Han tries twice to placate him but Greedo rebuffs both tries.

No court of law that I know of would consider Han guilty, he shot in self-defense.
Greedo is the aggressor here, no question. Giving a testy answer to someone that has a gun pointed at you when he suggests something bad is hardly aggressive.
Could Han have acted differently? Sure he could have begged for his life and groveled in the dirt.
However not doing that is not near enough to make him guilty in my opinion.
It is possible that Greedo wanted Han to beg and grovel and got irritated when he didn't.

Han is threatened with a gun, stopped from leaving and twice his attempt at peaceful resolution have been rebuffed. Again how many chances do you want here? Wait until Greedo actually shoots? At that range this would almost certainly kill Han.

I am reminded of Star Trek Voyager, where quite often the ship is fired upon and the crew give twelve or so warnings before shooting back. But by then the ship has already been damaged and they have to run away instead.

"I warn you, ow, that this could be seen as, ouch, an aggressive action and, ow, if you don't, uugh, don't stop killing me, ouch, then I'll, ow, will have to respond with, ouch, deadly force."

Poor Greedo, he just stumbled into Han with his gun at him. He accidentally sat down and pointed his gun at Han. He just happened to stop Han from leaving and by a slip of the tongue threaten Han's life. He really should not walk around with a gun on him, it never ends well.

Panicked is very unlikely as Greedo is clearly enjoying himself with having Han at his mercy. Greedo sucks because he is letting Han have one hand under the table. Not very smart. A warning shot is also unlikely as what would be the point. Greedo said "That's the idea." when Han said "Over my dead body." Pretty clear that a dead Han was the plan all along.

Well the argument that Lucas made was that before Han was not justified but now he is.
If he is still not justified then the change is totally pointless.

No because your argument is that it is in Han's character to provoke situations and then be justified in killing. The opposite is fact true, Han likes to shoot first and not give the opponent a chance to shoot first. He values his own life far more than being justified. This changes over the course of the film and in the end he does come to save Luke's life, despite the risk to himself.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point. Han went into that meeting knowing that Jabba had placed a price on his head.
So Han would know that Jabba is NOT in a good mood. So then it makes sense for Han NOT to provoke Jabba any further.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Now that I've read through all these posts, I've realized some things: 1) the original Cantina scene wasn't really that awesome in the first place 2) Greedo, in the initial version, was a moron, and he remains a moron in the SE. (And point 1 and point 2 are strongly linked.)

Darth Nub posted this scene from "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly." Please watch it. Then I'll show why I think the original Cantina scene is a really pale imitation.



Why this scene works so well is that the audience doesn't expect the Ugly to have a gun in the tub. He's in a position where most people would be incredibly vulnerable, we have no idea how he's going to get out of this situation, and the way the Ugly wins shows that he's incredibly clever and cautious and has great foresight. Plus, the scene ends with the Ugly saying a classic cool one-liner.

Now let's compare this to the cantina scene.

First, Han is not in a position where he should expect to be safe. He's not bathing. He's surrounded by the scum of the galaxy and he knows there's a bounty on his head. He should have his gun drawn or at least unholstered at all times. Also, he should be constantly scanning his surroundings instead of getting caught off guard when Greedo walks right up to him.

However, this is not really what hurts the scene, especially during a first viewing. We don't know what a deep hole Han is in until his confrontation with Greedo is over. Only on a second viewing should we realize that Han is being too nonchalant given the circumstances.

What really hurts the scene is that Greedo is a complete moron. The bounty hunter in "The Good, the Bad, the Ugly" had a very good reason to take the the time to gloat before killing the Ugly. He had no reason to expect that the Ugly would have a gun in the bathtub.

Greedo, however, had no reason to think that Han is unarmed. In fact, Han's gun is in plain view when Greedo walks him back to his table. The first thing Greedo should do is make Solo hand over his weapon or force Solo to stand against his wall so that he can search or disarm him safely. Instead, like a complete moron, Greedo lets an armed Solo sit right back down, and he then proceeds to engage him in a mostly pointless conversation.

We don't know what Greedo's goal is, but it seems limited to the following:
1) kill Han to get the bounty (and also possibly because he dislikes Solo): this can be achieved with no dialogue at the table. Greedo should simply shoot Han the second he sees him.
2) take Han to Jabba: this also can be achieved with no dialogue at the table. Greedo should simply say: "Give me your weapon. Now I'm taking you to Jabba. Walk thatta way."
3) get Han to hand over Jabba's money to him: this can be achieved with no dialogue at the table. Greedo should simply say: "Give me your weapon. Now tell me one thing. Do you have the money you owe Jabba?"
If yes, march Han to where he's got the money.
If no, kill Han or take him directly to Jabba.

So, where does that leave us? Greedo is a moron for 2 very obvious reasons: he does not immediately disarm Han & he engages an armed Solo in an unnecessary conversation allowing Han to draw his weapon, which he shouldn't have in the first place.

Whoopee! So, in the O-O-T, Han kills a total moron in fairly obvious way. Does it really make it that much worse that this total moron proves to be inept shot as well in the SE? From what we know from the OOT version, Greedo is already an awful bounty hunter. He's already made 2 incredibly stupid choices in this scene, and if Han had been more aware of his surroundings and had his gun drawn most likely he wouldn't be in the position he is.

What I've just mentioned also undercuts all the supposed "coolness" of what Han does. Han gets held up by a guy who uses the "clever" tactic of directly walking up to him, then when sitting, Han slowly unholsters his gun and disengages its safety under the table. So what? There's nothing especially clever about doing this. He shouldn't have the weapon in the first place, and it's the obvious course of action to take if the guy who's holding you up keeps yacking away.

That Han fires an instant after Greedo also doesn't necessarily make Han anymore of a dope than he was in the original version. Han wastes time before shooting Greedo in the original version. Even if Han is waiting for Greedo to say something akin to "I've been waiting for this for a long time" as proof that Greedo does truly intend to kill Han, Han should not waste the time responding, "Yes, I bet you have." At least from Solo's POV, he is already convinced at this point that Greedo intends to kill him, so saying, "Yes, I bet you have," simply allows Greedo to get a shot off first, which in the SE Greedo ends up doing, and this links us to the SE version of the scene and brings us to this conclusion: Should we really criticize the fact that Greedo shoots first when Han stupidly gives him the opportunity to do so? As the Ugly points out, "When you have to shoot, then shoot; don't talk." That applies as much to Han as it does to Greedo.

Ford plays the scene well, especially his delivery of the lines, "Yes, I bet you have" and "Sorry about the mess" and when we watched this scene as kids, we didn't think about how nonsensical the scene was, but really, the original version of this scene was nothing to write home about. We just liked it because Ford's performance is pretty good and because we were kids who hadn't seen a lot of Westerns with similar better done scenes, but you get all of Ford's performance in either version, and I would argue that's really all that's good about either version of this scene.

 

Agreed. I think it's one of those things that's been overly mythologized just because it was changed, like Vader's "Bring my shuttle" line (though obviously to a much lesser extent with the latter).

I have no doubt that if the scene was originally shot the way it is now, people would still have loved it, and they would have come up with all kinds of creative reasons to hate it if it was changed so that Han shot first.

 

I think there are some people who don't like changes simply because they're changes, but in this case I think a significant amount of the consternation is just because it looks so bad. If Greedo had originally shot first and it had looked halfway convincing, then sure, nobody would have batted an eyelid.

 

Okay, so next time they do a SE upgrade to the OT they should CGI Han into a bathtub.

 

But he should be bathing in the cantina!

And it looked exceptionally bad in the 97 SE release, which is when the ruckus about it started. Now it looks passable and it goes by so fast it just leaves you with the feeling, "What exactly did I just see?"

 

Let Ryan Gosling be his body double though.

 

To me it still looks bad, not as terrible as 97, but still not good.
And if the only change is that Greedo is a terrible shot in addition to being stupid, what is the benefit of this change? Lucas changed it for a reason. If the scene is as bad as before, doesn't that make the change totally pointless?

Yes it does because if Greedo is THIS bad a shot, then Han should not bother to shoot him. He could just walk away and leave Greedo fireing away as he obviously can't hit anything he aims at.
If the idea is that Han waits until Greedo fires, then he is a moron. If Greedo gets a shot of a fraction of a second before Han does or they shoot at the same time. Then Han shooting isn't prompted by Greedo shooting as he would have done that anyway. Then the change is a) unnecessary and b) Greedo comes across as the worst shot in the galaxy and c) it still doesn't look good.

Not sure about this, Han might not yet know that there is a bounty on his head, Greedo tells him that but it is unclear if Han knew about it beforehand. Han does know that he owes Jabba money and if he doesn't pay up it could cost him his life.
And walking around with a gun in your hand at all times isn't that good an idea. It draws attention to you and there are imperial soldiers there. It might also trigger trouble.

Don't get me wrong I like the scene as well but using your arguments here, why does the Ugly wait before shooting the guy? He has his gun ready and yet holds his fire while the other guy is talking away. He should have shot him as soon as the guy barged in.

Han didn't have his gun ready and had to draw it and have Greedo not notice.

Lastly, one thing missing form your analysis, Chewbacca.
Chewie is right in front of Han as they are leaving so if Greedo had just shot Han right there then Chewie would probably notice and take action. Then Greedo would have to deal with him as well.
Directly leaving would also have the chance to bump into Chewie. So it makes some sense that Greedo tries to separate Han from Chewie. One complaint that can be made against both scenes is that Chewie apparently doesn't notice that Greedo intercepts Han.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I'm taking one step back from my post above. I certainly don't want to leave the impression that I think anyone who likes the Han/Greedo scene is a dope. I simply think that some scenes clearly don't work and other scenes don't work as well under the close scrutiny of multiple viewings. For instance, the first time through, the sequence in Skyfall in which the bad guy allows himself to be captured and then escapes seemed pretty cool to me. It's only on a 2nd viewing that I realized that entire 15-minute sequence makes absolutely no sense and the bad guy had very little motive for allowing himself to be caught and certainly couldn't have possibly planned the incredibly complicated escape plan that he uses.

I think the Han/Greedo scene does have some problems on a first viewing. The biggest is that Greedo stupidly doesn't disarm Han. That's something that's pretty obvious. You simply don't let your adversary keep a weapon. Duh. I think any adult watching the scene for the first time would think, "Huh, wait, Han has a gun? Why didn't Greedo search him for a gun?" Greedo's choice to waste some time bantering with Han is somewhat dumb, but that's such a convention of these types of scenes that I think most people tend to accept it.

The other problems only become obvious on later viewings. Han's nonchalance would be one I would note. We only later learn that Jabba lives on Tatooine (not across the galaxy) and that Han should probably be on his guard.

I think Mr. Vines points out another problem with the scene which is hid pretty well by a cut to Luke & Ben outside the cantina before cutting back to inside the cantina. If it weren't for that editing choice, then it'd be pretty obvious that Chewie is completely unaware of the fact that Han is walking beside him one second and then the next Greedo has Han stopped with a gun to his chest.

I also think it's interesting that once we're used to a film, especially one from our childhood, we aren't as likely to notice its problems. This may be why the OT seems sacrosanct to some people when really it has its flaws too.

I agree with you. I don't think GL changed it to improve the dramatic effectiveness of the scene. I also agree with what I think you pointed out in an earlier post. GL changed it for children because he thought the scene glorified and trivialized violence. I think he especially didn't want that to be the case in a scene that introduced a major character. (I also think think that if a child can't read the subtitles the entire scene makes Han seem much more in the wrong because a child hearing only what Han has to say would interpret it as if Han has taken someone else's money when he shouldn't, that he hasn't returned it when he should've, and that he's lying about its whereabouts to Greedo; plus Han appears to have taken advantage of Luke two minutes earlier. I think all of that could, for young kids, make it seem like Han is doing a morally bad and unjust thing when he shoots Greedo. Without subtitles, Greedo simply appears to be trying to get back money Han has stolen. Reading the subtitles makes it much more clear that Greedo is perfectly willing to take the stolen money for himself and that he enjoys the fact that Solo might die and that he's even making a veiled threat that he will kill Han himself. All of this is lost if someone can't read the subtitles. Watch it through without the subtitles and I think you'll see what I mean.)

Yes, I agree that Han would be a moron to wait for Greedo to fire first. However, Han is already a moron for not immediately shooting Greedo once he has his gun unholstered and pointed at Greedo but instead waiting for Greedo to finish talking and to respond sarcastically himself. I guess you could say that Han is a super moron for waiting for Greedo to fire first rather than just a regular moron for his opportunity to make a snide remark. I would agree with that. I would also say that in the SE it's not really clear whether Han is reacting to Greedo's shot or just waiting to finish what he has to say before shooting (which just happens to allow Greedo to get a shot off first). I would also add that I imagine that GL's reason for changing the scene was so that the viewer interprets it that Greedo fired first; however, that doesn't mean that the viewer has to interpret the scene that way. It makes just as much sense to interpret it that Han stupidly waits for Greedo to finish what he's saying and respond himself rather than Han waiting for Greedo to get his shot off first.

I also mostly agree with what you're saying about Greedo missing at such close range. I guess one could argue that while talking Greedo lost his attention and didn't realize that his gun wasn't directly pointed at Han when he fires off his shot or that, despite his bravado, Greedo was nervous, or that he didn't feel in great need to aim perfectly because Greedo (stupidly) thought Han wasn't a threat, and so, I do think Greedo would have marginally better success if he had a chance to fire again and again. Even firing multiple shots at random Greedo would have a greater probability of hitting Han once rather than the one he does fire, but yeah, Greedo's missing that 1st shot greatly diminishes the sense that he is a credible threat.

Yeah, that's true that Han might not know there's a bounty on his head. Still, he and Chewie are pretty nonchalant. As you point out, Chewie is pretty dumb to just walk off when he knows Han owes a gangster like Jabba money. Also, with his gun holster closed, Han can't snap out his weapon and act like the fastest draw in the West.

The Ugly should simply shoot, but I aso think it's fair to say that the Ugly justifiably has a reason to think he can surprise his assassin. (Also, the Ugly could be retrieving his gun from underwater or cocking it or something like that.) Unlike the Ugly, Han shouldn't think he can surprise Greedo. He doesn't have a hidden gun. It's right there in the holster. (However, since Greedo is so stupid not to disarm Han, then maybe Han is still right to think he can surprise a moron like Greedo.)

Yes, I agree. Having a drawn out conversation didn't really serve Greedo's purposes, but it did make sense to wait until Chewie left the scene.


A few other things I'd point out about the 2 versions of the scene:

1) In the O-O-T, we don't actually see Han shoot his blaster at Greedo. All we see is an exploding Greedo after Han's line: "Yes, I bet you have." Since in the original version we can't see Greedo just before the explosion, it is actually possible that Greedo did get off a shot but we just can't see it because of the angle (though Greedo's errant shot couldn't have hit where it did in the SE since that spot is visible).

2) Why the heck does Greedo explode? No one else explodes when getting hit by a laser blast. Are Rodians explosive?

3) Finally, in the SE, why does the blaster shot bounce off the wall? Are the cantina wall's made of some blaster resistant material? I don't recall seeing blaster shots bounce off anything else and why doesn't it leave a hole where it hits the wall?