Go-Mer's Debate Thread

This used to be known as "The Gusher's Supplemental to the Basher's Sanctuary. I renamed it because I don't want to single out the "bashers" as I am against any thread where stagnation of opinion is encouraged and even enforced.

To that end, I renounce any implied affiliation with "Gushers" and would like you all to simply see me as another human being who loves Star Wars, just like the rest of you. I also ask that you leave your gusher or basher badges at the door and really think about what we are discussing here out of a desire to learn, not to merely hold on to your entrenched beliefs.

I would also like to keep this a stand-alone thread, and not a place to cut and paste things from either sanctuary to be "lambasted" here. If you happen to hear of an argument that you take issue with, re state their case here, and try not to single anyone out. This thread is about the arguments, not the people making them.

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[color=red][b]I will not tolerate name calling or implications of mental or spiritual superiority or inferiority, and that also goes for George Lucas, the guy who made all of this possible in the first place. If you can not be respectful, I am sure Quixotic-Sith will have no problem backing me up with his new found abilities.[/b][/color][hr][/blockquote]Okay then, get out there and represent your fellow man, or woman well.

[b][color=red]Quixotic-Edit:[/color] I have decided to rename this thread once again to reflect it's true nature - yet another debate thread, hosted by everyone's favorite TPM fan, Go-Mer-Tonic. Play nice, folks.[/b]

[b]EDIT #2: Discussion derailed by the author. Lock.[/b]

 

If I'm closed minded, can I still post here, as long as I don't "close minds"?

 

Open your mind or I use the crowbar on you...

Lets start off with where I left off in the Basher's Sanctuary.

I contend that there are absolutley ZERO contradictions in the prequels regarding the classic trilogy, and the only things that are contradicted are some people's assumptions based on what little is said about the prequel era in the classic trilogy.

 

I blame Lucas for these assumptions and demand a free copy of AOTC DVD for compensation. Wait, that was aweful close minded of me -- sorry.

I just had something to say about those contradictions then promptly forgot what I was going to post, I shall return (long day already).

 

I am wondering how you can blame Lucas for assumptions you made.

 

Some light background reading...

 

There might be a small contradiction. Palpatine said the Republic has stood for a thousand years and then Obi-wan said the jedi knights defended the republic for over a thousand generations in ROTJ.

 

Wow, I have never heard of that before...

I will have to look into it before responding to this one.

 

Maybe people in the Star Wars universe tend to have children when they're one year old, making each generation = one year?

 

As far as contradictions go: If you're going to be legalistic about it then no, there are no definitive, direct contradictions between the PT and CT that I'm aware of(i.e. "I was ONLY trained by Yoda," then Obi-Wan, it turns out, was trained by Qui-Gon).

The argument is that things are implied very strongly in the CT that are contradicted in the PT. It is strongly implied in the CT that Yoda was Obi-Wan's master in much the same way as Obi was luke's master. Also, Obi-Wan says he took it upon himself to train Anakin, yet in the PT it comes off as Obi-Wan simply following his Master's last wishes.

So if you are talking about contradictions in the strictist legal sense, no. I would go so far as to say you could argue in almost any movie that there are no contradictions that cannot be explained. However, I maintain that these things were strongly implied, and whether it contradicts the CT or not, it at least implies things that could not reasonably be implied from the CT.

 

How can something be strongly implied if it isn't stated?

 

Well-done Gome...I think....maybe.

There are things about TPM I used to somewhat dislike, but think work quite well now after watching it for the hundreth time.

Anakin as a little moppet is one.

 

Do I really have to explain that?

Basically it is like this:

Have you ever noticed how someone feels about something by the way they look when you mention said thing? Facial expressions could be considered subjective, but at the same time they generally have certain meanings that people have associated with them. This is true with many things. The definition of implying something demands that it not be stated directly.

If stating things directly was the only way of saying something, what a boring world we would live in. Every single good book or movie has implications for our own world. Parables are an example of stories that do not directly state something but imply it for greater effect.

So with that established, yes one can imply things from the CT. One can reasonably imply from the CT that Owen Lars was very opposed to Anakin being trained by Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan: He was afraid that you'de go off on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father.

From this we can imply several things. First, that Owen Lars was around when Anakin was recruited by Obi-Wan. Second, that he was vehemently opposed to this. Where is this in the PT? Where is the conflict between Obi-Wan and Owen? There is none! This is what people mean when they are talking about contradictions.

 

That kind of thing doesn't really bother me - things don't happen exactly as you might expect based on what Obi-Wan says, but, assuming Owen knew all about Anakin's story, you can see why he wouldn't want Luke following in his footsteps.

For my money, the Qui-Gon issue is the only real contradiction. Lucas seemingly going through his TPM script crossing out every 'Obi-Wan' and pencilling in 'Qui-Gon' instead probably wasn't the greatest creative decision the guy ever made. Actually, if you go through Obi-Wan's I-took-it-upon-myself speech and more or less do that very thing, it actually makes a lot more sense. There's really no getting away from the fact that Qui-Gon did everything that Obi-Wan claimed to do.

 

So, here's a thread where Gome gets to vilifiy and demonize anyone who didn't enjoy TPM, the way HE did. Of course anyone who didn't like Menance MUST be closed-minded!

Yeah, I'm sure MILLIONS of SW fans, after waiting for 16 years for this movie went into it "wanting" to hate TPM, and were "close-minded" about their viewing of the movie.

I have expressed many times before in the basher's sanctuary, how much I WANTED TPM to be enjoyable for me...but I was genuinely dissapointed with what was on screen. I gave it a chance, and subsequent chances on video, but was disapointed by the movie, like millions of others. Period.

To name this thread "the OPEN-MINDED Sanctuary" is just another sad attempt by Gomer to insult the intelligence and the "openess" of anyone who disagrees with his stand on TPM, IMO. You truly are a one-trick-pony.

 

How can something be strongly implied if it isn't stated?


Let's ask Webster, shall we?

imply : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement - to express indirectly.


By definition you can't both directly state and imply something. Once it's been stated it is no longer implied.


BTW, I look forward to this thread if it lives up to the billing. I'm going to assume(uh-oh, I used the A word) that when you say "implications of mental or spiritual superiority or inferiority" are not allowed, that you won't be responding to every post of a differing opinion with how sad it is that "you just didn't get it" or "you don't understand what GL is doing".
Whether you mean them to be or not, those dismissive responses are insulting, and really annoying.

 

Ah very nice, Go-Mer!

Finally, a middle-ground sanctuary!

 

Well, thanks for bringing those negative sentiments in here RogueSith.

Ferel, I am just as against the gusher's sanctuary as I am the basher's sanctruary. Any place that will ban you if you disagree with the "popular" opinion is a bad place in my mind.

 

But what's the difference if all you're going to do is belittle everyone that disagrees with you?

 

Is that what I am doing here Stone?

 

"Finally a middle-ground sanctuary".

Oh please.

So, are negative comments about TPM "allowed" in here if they are expressed in a well thought out and "open minded" manner?

Positive and negative comments/criticism allowed would be the ONLY thing that would imply "open-mindedness" IMO.

 

Gomer - Not yet. But it's what you do everywhere else.

EDIT - clarity, ferel snuck in on me

 

Excuse me? What negative comments did I bring in?

 

The ones you didn't want me to bring in here.

Just give me a chance will ya?

Yes, this is an equal opportunity thread, meant to discuss the positive and negative aspects of TPM or the prequels in general.

Back on topic, can someone give me an example of something that was "strongly implied" that TPM or AOTC contradicts?

 

How about we withhold our judgments until we actually see how this goes?

And for the record, it appears Go-Mer's naysayers are the ones stirring the pot here. He hasn't done anything yet and you all are jumping down his throat already.

Yeesh.