Go-Mer's Debate Thread

I agree with Evil Hawk completely. What amazes me are some of these so-called "fans" who judge everything in the PT by the "Holy" OT. The PT is superior to the OT in every way! Why not judge it on it's own merits?

Everyone knows that the OT is still a work-in-progress for GL anyway. When the Ultimate Editions come out and Lucas is able to finally fully realize his vision for what the OT was always meant to be in the first place, all of these "problems" will go away. New scenes will be inserted that will smooth out any inconsistencies and make the films flow better. Not that there are any inconsistencies to begin with. We've proven that. So there.

 

"They both played it off as though the three of them could all co exist as a big Sith family, but they were both just playing dumb."

What is the motivation for "playing dumb" here, Gomer? This is where the thing just doesn't gel. If this is a hard and fast rule, known to both Vader and the Emperor, then there's no one for them to play dumb FOR. There's no need to secretly scheme, nor is there any need to go around calling one another "friend" and such... because the gauntlet would clearly have been thrown down when Vader suggested turning Luke.

There's simply no motivation for either character to "play it off and play dumb".

 

Unless it's not their rule at all, but rather Yoda's rule.

 

Too suspicious??? As if openly recruiting another Sith aprpentice in direct violation of the 'rule' is not suspcious enough???

As I clearly stated (do you guys even bother reading posts before responding?) I said that it is probably the natural order of the Sith for the apprentice to offer his master a potentially stronger student. But it is a scheming apprentice who would turn on his master! Why would the apprentice have to be sly about it? Just imagine the consequences if he tipped his hand too early and failed.

The explanation is really very simple. You guys are trying to force a contradiction by overcomplicating things.

 

Unless it's not their rule at all, but rather Yoda's rule.

You know, this is the best explanation yet. Besides, Yoda never said, "Always two there are. No more and no less. This is an irrefutable law of the Sith." If you go by the films alone, it can be deduced that Yoda was just making a shrewd observation.

 

Could it be, maybe, just maybe, that this confusion was intended?

That the "fan of the future" is supposed to wonder if the only 2 rule is still active? if it was valid in the first place? if it applies to this situation?

I think that would make the scene more interesting.
(that was the reason I brought it up, but now it's all polarized to extremes)

Maybe? I don't know...



what's with those Evil socks?

 

Just a little Halloween fun.

 

In any case, what Yoda said does not really gel with what we see in subsequent films at this point. Lucas needs to do something in Episode III to resolve this. If, as Durwood imagines, it's Sith custom for an apprentice to offer his Master a stronger apprentice, then let's see some indication of this in Ep. III. If Anakin/Vader literally does not know about this "rule of two", then let's see this set up in Episode III. If Yoda is simply WRONG about the whole thing in the first place, let's resolve THAT in Ep. III.

I'm not saying it couldn't be made to fit smoothly, but at the moment it simply does not.

 

The rule of two is, in all practicality, a variation of the saying, "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer." Think about that for a moment. It explains everything.

 

Durwood, look... I've seen plenty of gangster movies. It's not like I don't understand the concept of back-stabbing among kingpins. It still doesn't make this "no more or less than two" thing work as some sort of Sith law unless Vader was simply unaware of it in ESB.

 

"It makes sense to me, but maybe that's just because I want it to."



Could there ever be a more appropriate quote for Go-Mer to use in his sig?





BTW, Evilhawk rules.

 

It's really simple to me:

either the situation worked and it still does, or it was already flawed and it still is...

any crossform I've read so far is contreived.

 

I'm with Jabbadabbado on this one (who'd thought it would come to this?). It's not a law as in an enforced rule but a descriptive law that defines a pattern of behavior.

 

Could you forgive Lucas for putting things in the PT that only really work in the OT if you haven't seen it yet? (in simpler words: the saga in the intended order)

At least we had the Vader surprise...

 

I will use that in my sig if you guys put this in your sig:

"It doesn't make sense to me, but maybe that's because I don't want it to."

 

What amazes me are some of these so-called "fans" who judge everything in the PT by the "Holy" OT. The PT is superior to the OT in every way! Why not judge it on it's own merits?

Wha!?? Are some kind of PT basher?! Listen chumo, the PT is not superior to the OT. It is so extraordinary that any comparison with the OT undermines it. It's like comparing the Mona Lisa with monkey spit. The PT is perfection wrapped in an omnipotent package. Do you "judge" God?

 

This is pathetic...

 

Isn't putting "evil" in front of a basher's name sort of a double negative?

 

Go-Mer-Tonic (a.k.a. basher extremist),

How dare you use the image of our God to "debate" TPM. Surely you must realise that by even contemplating debate, you are not a true fan. And your sig????!!! Not perfect?? Mere mortal??? Are you mad?! Go! Off to the pits of hell. Off to the Basher's Sanctuary you go!

 

Some people don't deserve Star Wars Evil-hawk...

 

Well, this has been interesting.

It seems when I brought up clear examples of times when the "rule of two" is breached, people say that I shouldn't take the rule of two literally. Thank you, that has been my whole argument, and I'm glad that people agree with me. I don't take it literally.

But you then can't tell me that I have to take certain parts of it literally (the parts that support your arguments) and ignore other parts. Yoda explicitly states:

"Always two there are. No more, no less."

So, if you are saying that I don't have to take the second sentence literally, why the heck should I have to take the first one literally. Maybe I should go watch TPM again, because I haven't noticed anything in that scene which suugest that Yoda intended people to place more weight on the first part of his "rule of two". Maybe he gave a sly wink to the camera, or nudged Mace with his elbow....

And the same thing goes for SomeRandomNerd's rebuttal of my points regarding midichlorians. I'm expected to ignore certain parts of what QGJ said or assume that he didn't really mean them. I'll use the quote again:

"Without the midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. Our midichlorians continually speak to us... telling us the will of the Force...when you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you."

But apparently I should just ignore that bit about midichlorians speaking to us, because QGJ didn't really mean that. And he didn't mean that you should quiet your mind to hear them speaking to you. He meant something else. And midi's don't really know the will of the force, and they don't really tell us it either.

And apparently I should just pretend that QGJ was smoking death sticks when he said that the midi's concieved Anakin.

Okay...


You seem to be from the camp that says that the midichloriains cheapen the idea of the force, but then you pose about half a dozen questions that prove the exact opposite.

Well Durwood, that's because I don't belong to the camp that believes midi's cheapen the idea of the force, so the rest of your argument goes right out the window. Sorry you had to waste your time

 

How dare you question Lucas' authority?

The rule of 2 makes it obvious that Dooku becomes Palpatine's new apprentice, the very second that Maul dies.

 

What if Sidious is taking a dump? Will there be a few seconds without a Sith Lord or is Dooku automatically assigned?

 

No, only one second without 2 Sith causes such a paradox in the timespace continuum, that it could destroy the universe...

(or if we're lucky just the SW galaxy)

 

Maybe the Sith are supposed to be like vampire slayers; as soon as one dies, another "chosen one" takes their place...

JenX

>>>>But apparently I should just ignore that bit about midichlorians speaking to us, because QGJ didn't really mean that. [...] And midi's don't really know the will of the force, and they don't really tell us it either.

On a different subject, my radio spoke to me the other day, telling me the Will of Terry Wogan. I swear it's true- I know, because I was there.

But it makes no sense! How did Terry Wogan speak to my stereo? How does my stereo know what Terry Wogan's thinking? And if it doesn't know, then it can't tell me!

And how it all ended up on my little walkman, I have no idea...




Patrick Russel

>>>Random, have we seen any dark-side Jedi OTHER than the various Sith?

No. (Unless you count Qui Gon...)

But TPM makes it clear that the danger in training Anakin is that he might turn to the Dark Side- yet at the time the Jedi Council refuse to train him, they believe that the Sith are extinct, and have been for a millenia.

>>>>I mean, this isn't some minor plot point that we can just leave to the EU.

Erm... isn't the "rule of two" in the film merely a comment by Yoda that if there was one Sith dead, there must be another one out there somewhere? The idea of it being a rule in the first place is, technically, EU...

>>>So unless Lucas does show dark Jedi in Episode III other than the Sith, then yes... the implication in ESB will be that Vader and the Emperor are talking about turning Luke and making him a Sith.

Or just having him turn his back on the Rebellion and join the Empire.

>>>>Or do you honestly watch ESB and think "A powerful ally... aha! That means they intend to hand Luke a mop and have the shiniest Stardestroyer floors imaginable!"?


Nice...

I think it's important to bear in mind that at some point in Episode III, Anakin/Vader will replace Dooku/Tyranus as the Sith Apprentice. How that unfolds will have a lot to do with this debate.

"I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the same way I lost your father."