Go-Mer's Debate Thread

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Oct 10, 2002.

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  1. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    SomeRandomNerd, thanks for making my point for me...again! I'll even accept for the moment that you actual describe your radio as "talking" to you.

    To use your example, in the OT, Terry Wogan is in the same room as you, speaking to you. In TPM Terry Wogan is in a studio, talking into a microphone which then sends signals to a transmitter which sends out signals which are then picked up by your radio.

    Oh, except remove the actual scientific process by which this happens, replace it with technobabble and silence, and then give your radio the ability to impregnate women.











  2. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Dooku did turn to the dark side around the same time that Maul died...

    mmmmm...
  3. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    But did he do it instana...instanteo...straight away???

    Stupid student bar beer hangover...
  4. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Maybe it's when Anakin "dies" and is reborn as Vader that Luke is born, in a kind of reverse [insert the name of the evil-slayer-whose-name-escapes-me-right-now here] way...


    JenX

    I must have misunderstood your point...

    >>>To use your example, in the OT, Terry Wogan is in the same room as you, speaking to you. In TPM Terry Wogan is in a studio, talking into a microphone which then sends signals to a transmitter which sends out signals which are then picked up by your radio.

    Well, I'd say that in my example, in the OT, you hear Terry Wogan's voice, but are told nothing of where it came from, other than it's through the airwaves you've just been learning about. In the PT, you hear Terry Wogans voice, and are told that it's coming from something picking up signals from the airwaves and passing them on.

    You would then apparently interpret this newly-introduced radio as having to be sentient, aware of what Terry Wogan is thinking, and able to pass on my messages back to Terry Wogan...
  5. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    The "evil" slayer was called Faith.

    And I'm not sure if you are misunderstanding my point. Your first paragraph pretty much nails my point. In the OT we are told Jedi communicate with the force. In TPM we are told that Jedi communicate with the force via midichlorians.

    As I've pointed out repeatedly, I find the explaination of what midi's are, how people came to have midi's and how they operate to be technobabble of the highest order.

    Your second paragraph is slightly off in that I'm not assuming that the radio/midi's are sentient. But QGJ assertion that they speak and the fact that they can impregante women would lend some weight to that assumption.

    I mean, do you often say that the radio is speaking to you? Do you say "Terry Wogan said..." or "The radio spoke to me, telling me that Terry Wogan said..."? It seems that the assumption that midi's are to some extent sentient can be backed up, whereas the assumption that they aren't requires people to bend the rules of grammar into some very interesting shapes.
  6. Evil_Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2002
  7. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
  8. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    We have the hilarious fan film "Duality" to tell us how insanely stupid the rule of two would be as part of the Sith by-laws.
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Think of it like this Jen X.

    In the OT we saw that Jedi weilded light sabers, but in the prequel trilogy we are told they need their arms to do that.

    Nothing about what we see in the OT about Jedi weilding lightsabers is contradicted by the fact they need arms to do so.
  10. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Posted by Go-Mer-Tonic.

    Think of it like this Jen X.

    In the OT we saw that Jedi weilded light sabers, but in the prequel trilogy we are told they need their arms to do that.

    Nothing about what we see in the OT about Jedi weilding lightsabers is contradicted by the fact they need arms to do so.


    ARGH!!! People, please, am I cracking up??? Am I not making myself clear??? Is this some kind of halloween trick???

    I'm not saying that midi's contradict the OT. I've never said that. I've never even hinted at that. I have, in fact, repeatedly given my reasons for disliking midi's. Heck, in my last post I restated my reasons for disliking midi's.

    I don't understand what's going on here. People think they are arguing with me when they are in fact agreeing with me and other people think they are arguing with me when they are in fact arguing with completely different people. But I do understand that this problem wouldn't occur quite so frequently if people took the time to read my posts properly.


  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Is your point simply that you don't like the science involved?

    Because it isn't technobabble at all. It is based on real things real scientists have discovered in all living things here on Earth.

  12. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    For what it's worth Jen, I find it perfectly understandable that there are people who fully understand the workings of the midis, and still don't like them.

    That's my last word on that subject.
  13. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Is your point simply that you don't like the science involved?

    Because it isn't technobabble at all. It is based on real things real scientists have discovered in all living things here on Earth.


    I know what it's based on. That doesn't stop it from being technobabble. In fact, that is one of the key components of technobabble. You take a piece of scientific information, mess around with it a bit, and shove it in to your story.

    And that's what midichlorians are. Technobabble. Microscopic organisms that live inside people and can impregnate women. Oh, and they can speak to you as well as telling you the will of the force. And life can't exist without them, except they entered into a symbiotic relationship with a different life form which means that by definition life must be able to exist without them.

    And without them the Jedi would have no knowledge of the force, except that we know that Jedi who don't even have bodies can have knowledge of the force (which, as I said before, isn't a contradiction with the OT. It's merely another example of the ignorance of the Jedi and another reason why I don't feel guilty about throwing the midi's in the dustbin).


  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well that's the working theory behind Mitochondria. It wasn't like some guy carrying organic matter and another guy carrying mitochondria bumped into each other and we get the two great tastes that taste great together. The thought is that Mitochondria is what made life possible in the first place. The idea that they impregnated Shmi is merely Qui-Gon's best guess. The idea that what he is hearing when he listens to the Force is the Midichlorians "speaking" to him is only his theory. And your reaction to Midichlorians as "technobabble" that shouldn't exist is the way many people reacted to the study of Mitochondria. So even your reaction to them enriches their substance.

    It just amazes me how true to life the Midichlorians concept is, and I don't understand why anyone would call it "technobabble".

    P.S. When the Jedi become one with the Force, they do not need biological ties to the Force, because they are one with it.
  15. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Well that's the working theory behind Mitochondria. It wasn't like some guy carrying organic matter and another guy carrying mitochondria bumped into each other and we get the two great tastes that taste great together. The thought it that Mitochondria is what made life possible in the first place.

    I'm not entirely sure what your point is, but life is most definetly thought to have existed before mitochondria.

    The idea that they impregnated Shmi is merely Qui-Gon's best guess. The idea that what he is hearing when he listens to the Force is the Midichlorians "speaking" to him is merely his theory.

    Whoopie! So, QGJ is merely spouting guesses and and personal theories. Thanks Go-Mer, I feel even better about dumping the midi's then I did before!

    Editted to add Well, it will come as a surprise to no-one that Go-Mer editted his message. I'll add the relevant part here:

    And your reaction to Midichlorians as "technobabble" that shouldn't exist is the way many people reacted to the study of Mitochondria.

    Okay, I'm going through my posts trying to find the part where I said that midi's shouldn't exist. I can't find it because...I never said that.

    It just amazes me how true to life the Midichlorians concept is, and I don't understand why anyone would call it "technobabble".

    It amazes me how people continue to use the well researched study of Mitochondria to defend midi's, especially when you consider how unlike Mitochondria midi's are (from what QGJ has told us about them).
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    You can't really "dump" the midis. Whether you like them or not, they make up the very fabric of the SW universe. You do not have to like them, but I think you go far out of your way not to.

    But again, that is your choice to make as you see fit.
  17. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I always thought of "technobabble" in the classic Star Trek sense as a term for taking advantage of the sci fi genre by simply inventing a device, literally a plot device, or scientific principle or technology as a convenient and easy way to resolve a dilemma in the story.

    Typically, some previously unmentioned thingy is suddenly introduced to miraculously save the day. In the case of midichlorians, Lucas needed a quick fix to the problem of justifying Qui-gon's belief in little Anakin's abilities. Enter technobabble, stage left.
  18. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    You can't really "dump" the midis. Whether you like them or not, they make up the very fabric of the SW universe.

    Well, according to you QGJ, the only character to give any real details on what midi's are and what they do, was making guesses and spouting his own personal theories.

    What I am saying is that I don't give much weight to his theories and guesses, especially when he contradicts himself.

    Editted to add. Just for clarity, I'm not dumping midi's in the bin. They definetly exist in the SW universe. I'm dumping QGJ theory of what they do in the dustbin.
  19. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Faith! That's the one- that was bugging me all afternoon...

    >>>I'm not saying that midi's contradict the OT. I've never said that. I've never even hinted at that. I have, in fact, repeatedly given my reasons for disliking midi's. Heck, in my last post I restated my reasons for disliking midi's.

    And we're (or at least, I'm) trying to break them down and bring even more joy to your Star Wars-watching experience!

    >>>As I've pointed out repeatedly, I find the explaination of what midi's are, how people came to have midi's and how they operate to be technobabble of the highest order.

    Well, until you bring the Force into it, I can't see any difference between midichlorians and mitochondria. So I wouldn't call that "technobabble"- it's just plain biology.

    Where the Force gets involved doesn't trouble me either- midichlorians are life forms, life "creates" the Force and "makes it grow." As the Force is a "mystical energy field created by all living things" (which, incidentally, is technobabble by any definition!)

    >>>It amazes me how people continue to use the well researched study of Mitochondria to defend midi's, especially when you consider how unlike Mitochondria midi's are (from what QGJ has told us about them).

    How are they unlike them?
    They are tiny microscopic life forms, without which, life as we know it could not exist.
    They live inside your cells.
    They continually speak to us...
    hang on...

    >>>Your second paragraph is slightly off in that I'm not assuming that the radio/midi's are sentient. But QGJ assertion that they speak and the fact that they can impregante women would lend some weight to that assumption.

    A sperm can impregnate a woman. Are they sentient?
    And the point I was (perhaps a little clumsily) raising earlier is that radios, cars, computers- machines, basically, can speak. But it doesn't make them sentient, because it's not really 'their voice' that they're speaking with.

    Likewise, midichlorians aren't Anakin's "father" or "impregnator"- the Force is. Midichlorians don't talk- the Force does.

    Just my interpretation that I've spent waaay too much time thinking about though, but I like it, and it doesn't seem to me to have any of the problems that you have with your interpretation...

    >>>>I mean, do you often say that the radio is speaking to you? Do you say "Terry Wogan said..." or "The radio spoke to me, telling me that Terry Wogan said..."? It seems that the assumption that midi's are to some extent sentient can be backed up, whereas the assumption that they aren't requires people to bend the rules of grammar into some very interesting shapes.

    Radio is a good analogy for the workings (I think), but bad for the grammar in this case. How about, say, a speak&spell? Clearly not sentient, but wouldn't you say that it talks to you?

    Or, maybe more to the point, if you were explaining what it is and what it does to a child, would you tell him that the speak & spell was talking to him, or that the speak & spell was only an intermediate between a computer programmer, his code and the kid with the chunk of plastic in his hands?


    >>>And without them the Jedi would have no knowledge of the force, except that we know that Jedi who don't even have bodies can have knowledge of the force

    But they know about the Force from when they had bodies... (And, as Go-Mer said, they are the Force.)

    >>>but life is most definetly thought to have existed before mitochondria.

    Not multicellular life, though.
  20. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    SomeRandomNerd, as you (jokingly) pointed out, there are a number of differences between mitochondria and midi's. Mitochondria can't impregnate women and don't speak to us.

    Honestly, just read through what QGJ had to say about midi's. As Go-Mer so rightly pointed out, it's personal theory and guesses, and he contradicts himself. If life couldn't exist without midi's then midi's would never have been able to enter into a symbiotic relationship with another lifeform.

    I just wonder why the heck I should take what QGJ says as being a fact when a great chunk of what he says has been shown to be nonsense.

    And, instead of getting bogged down in radios and speak-and-spells, lets just concentrate on what QGJ said. He explicitly stated that midichlorians talk to people.

    "Our midichlorians continually speak to us..."

    If he believed that midichlorians were just the equivalent of radio speakers he could have said so quite simply.

    In fact, he wouldn't have needed to do keep it simple...Anakin is a kid who built his own podracer! I think he could just about get his head round the idea of transmitters!

    To support your theory, SomeRandomNerd, you have to twist what QGJ is saying, and ignore the parts that don't fit. I don't. I just examined what he said, found that he contradicts himself, and take his theories with a big old handful of salt.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    What doesn't fit, what contradicts itself?
  22. Evil_Plo_Koen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2002
    How do you think life (as in real life) started in the first place?

    coincidence? or a concious decision?
  23. RogueSith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 3
    I will use that in my sig if you guys put this in your sig:

    "It doesn't make sense to me, but maybe that's because I don't want it to."




    Good point Go, you use something that you actually said, while we get words that you want to put in our mouths. Sounds fair and reasonable. [face_plain]
  24. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Go Mer Tonic said: The thought is that Mitochondria is what made life possible in the first place.

    Wow.


  25. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    GO MER TONIC said: You can't really "dump" the midis. Whether you like them or not, they make up the very fabric of the SW universe. You do not have to like them, but I think you go far out of your way not to.

    But again, that is your choice to make as you see fit.


    I see this as a concession. JenX has pointed out the inherent flawed logic in an entity without which no life cam exist yet enjoys a symbiotic relationship with another entity. You have given no answer to that. Now you're just saying they are the "fabric" of the universe. I don't mind scientific explanations. But concepts, even in a movie, should make sense. This concept does not.
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