Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Go-Mer-Tonic, Oct 10, 2002.
Well, it has yet to make sense to you.
Well, we can't all be as perfect as you.
It wouldn't be too hard, as I am far from perfect.
If it makes sense to you Go Mer, then explain it and respond instead of copping out.
Otherwise, as I said before, I see it as a concession (which it is).
"It wouldn't be too hard, as I am far from perfect."
Really? Name one time, just one instance that, in your mind, you've been wrong while debating in these forums.
Oh, I am sure I have been wrong some times...
"Well, it has yet to make sense to you."
Well, guess what Gome? There are plenty of us who understand the concept behind the midichlorians perfectly, but still don't like them and don't think they belong in a "Star Wars" movie.
They were an unnecessary and amateurishly clumsy plot device that GL shoehorned into the story in order to accomplish one single thing that could have been accomplished so much more elegantly and compellingly. But that would have required a subtlety on GL's part that would have cut into his time playing with his digital tinker toys.
I understand the midichlorians just fine. I just don't think there was any reason to take the story in that direction.
I understand the midichlorians just fine. I just don't think there was any reason to take the story in that direction.
I'm in total agreement here. I'd still like Gomer to explain it as the Sword asked him earlier.
He was wrong in thinking Lucas is a mere mortal and that the films are not perfect.
I am not saying you guys need to like Midichlorians, I am just saying they do make sense.
Also I am nost sure if I understand this correctly, but someone just pointed out that mitochondria are always found in multi cellular entities, but not in single cell entities. If that is true, then it might be more accurate to say that Mitochondria is essentail to multi cellular life.
Living cells have midis, living things create the force...
Lucas had this all planned out.
For those who can't figure out which came first, the midis or life:
They came into existence together...
Lucas is a golden God.
IMO Yoda in ESB had the best explanation of the force. I think GL should have had Qui-gon do the same.
What doesn't fit, what contradicts itself?
Go-Mer, are you joking? Didn't I set out in the very last post that I sent, the one directly above your post, how QGJ contradicts himself?
JenX goes back and checks her last post
Yes. Yes, I did! Phew, I thought I was losing my mind for a second there.
So, read my last post.
Go-Mer is beyond checking the posts of others. He can predict what you write before you write it. It is a "fan" trait. I am a true fan. He is a fan. Once he stops denying the perfection that is SW and Lucas, he will move to "true fan" status.
Long Live Qui-Gon!!!
I do believe someone asked you to remind us of when you were ever wrong on these boards Go-Mer. The truth is, you really don't think you have been wrong. Nor do you truly admit that SW is not perfect. I think we all know that you made up your mind to close off all anti-SW sentiments and you would never allow yourself to even contemplate another view. The fact that you can't name ONE instance where you were wrong suggests as much. And, yes, I am positive everyone here could name an instance where they were wrong. Every day you post here, the more "polarized" in your own view you become.
See? not a popular subject.
It's a clash between science and religion, between the rational and the spiritual.
It questions the very roots of our beliefs.
That's why people fear the midis and want to ignore them.
I don't think one rules out the other...
Lucas is my Motorcycle.
I've been wrong on these boards. In fact, I like being proved wrong, because every time I'm shown to be wrong, I know a little bit more.
Maybe I haven't been wrong enough...
If life couldn't exist without midi's then midi's would never have been able to enter into a symbiotic relationship with another lifeform.
Qui Gon: "Midichlorians are microscopic life forms that live inside our cells. [...] They speak to us, continually telling us of the Will of the Force. Without the midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force."
Given that he's just said that midichlorians are life forms in their own right, it seems obvious that he's NOT saying that "life would never have come into being if it weren't for these magic force-bacteria which are a fundamental ingredient of life itself." That interpretation of his speech makes no sense whatsoever, from either a logical or a biological point of view.
I think it's pretty clear what Qui Gon is getting at if you take the whole sentence, instead of single carefully selected clauses out of each sentence (of course, that does assume that you're trying to understand what he's saying, rather than pick holes in it...)
Again, by using the mitochondria analogy;
Take all the mitochondria out of a living being, and it won't be able to live, because although there are millions of life forms that live in symbiosis with your body (viruses, bacteria etc.), mitochondria is one that is absolutely essential to life as we know it. They are the powerhouses of every living cell. You can remove all sorts of things from a human body (you could have an artificial heart, an iron lung, robotic arms etc.- see where I'm going?) but mitochondria are essential to life.
Every multicellular life form known to exist has made the evolutionary step of incorporating mitochondria into it's cells. Without making that evolutionary step, it would be impossible for life to reach a stage where it would have knowledge of anything, because it would be no more than some sort of amoeba (which may well have mitochondria too for all I know...)
So it's perfectly true to say that "mitochondria are microscopic life forms that live inside our cells, and without them, life could not exist" without there being any contradiction.
So surely the same goes for midichlorians?
>>>SomeRandomNerd, as you (jokingly) pointed out, there are a number of differences between mitochondria and midi's. Mitochondria can't impregnate women and don't speak to us.
There's also the more obvious difference that mitochondria are real, and not fictional, and have nothing to do with a mystical energy field created by all living things (which, sadly, I don't think really exists)- both of these "differences" are entirely to do with the Force.
If that's the only difference between the two that you can come up with, then I think the two are actually proven to be very similar.
>>>To support your theory, SomeRandomNerd, you have to twist what QGJ is saying, and ignore the parts that don't fit. I don't. I just examined what he said, found that he contradicts himself, and take his theories with a big old handful of salt.
No- you just have to take into consideration what you know from the real world we live in (ie. about mitochondria), what other information is out there in the saga ("life creates it... makes it grow...", "The Force is an energy field created by all living things"), and find a way of making it all fit. If the theory/interpretation doesn't fit with it all, then it's wrong. Simple as that.
>>>And, instead of getting bogged down in radios and speak-and-spells, lets just concentrate on what QGJ said. He explicitly stated that midichlorians talk to people.
"Our midichlorians continually speak to us..."
If he believed that midichlorians were just the equivalent of radio speakers he could have said so quite simply.
He could have done, but given that Anakin has had no training,
Life cannot exist without the mididchlorians and the midichlorians cannot exist without life. There is no contradiction. They both came to be simultaneously.
Also, I was wrong from the time I saw TPM for the first time to the time I got back home and logged on here. I thought there was no way a real Star Wars fan could be let down by it.
Before I first logged on to the Force Net so long ago, I had this crazy idea that Star Wars fans knew to avoid hate and nagativity. I thought that true Star Wars fans would realize there are lessons to be learned from these films.
I was wrong.
It seems to me that many fans have come to represent the very things this saga is against thematically, and the horrible part is most of them don't even realize it.
Go-Mer is a little like the Jedi..Stagnant, unable to see beyond the shroud, proud and with poorly written dialogue
Just kidding, Gome.
Sometimes I go out of my way to say "very" twice in every day sentances just to spite the rest of the world.
"True Star Wars fans would realize there are lessons to be learned from these films."
I would think that even the most die-hard fan would realize the limits of Star Wars as in "everything I need to know I learned from watching the Star Wars saga."
The OT lessons: size matters not. Anger, hatred and aggression are absolute bads. The filial/paternal bond trumps the dark side of the Force. Don't join the rebellion until you pay off your debts to Jabba the Hutt. Even an outright lie can be true from a certain point of view.
The PT lessons: Hatred is an absolute bad, and so is fear. Grieving over the loss of your mom equals fear, and that's bad. Aggression is an absolute bad. Wait, no it's not, since sometimes even Yoda has to resort to aggressive combat tactics to overwhelm an enemy. Mass murderers are only human. Gungans don't base battlefield promotions on competence. And finally, there is a delicate and difficult line between slapstick comedy and insulting the audience.
Ultimately, I would say the morality of the saga is so muddled and muddied that taking away life lessons from it is virtually impossible. In my mind, Star Wars succeeds because it's fun, not because it gives me clues about how to live my life.
I am not saying that you can learn everything from Star Wars, but the basics of being a decent human being with a positive outlook can be found within.[blockquote][hr]The OT lessons: size matters not. Anger, hatred and aggression are absolute bads. The filial/paternal bond trumps the dark side of the Force. Don't join the rebellion until you pay off your debts to Jabba the Hutt. Even an outright lie can be true from a certain point of view.[hr][/blockquote]The lesson is actually that what may seem to be an untruth could be the truth from another perspective. Not that it is still a lie. But at least you were paying attention for those other lessons.[blockquote][hr]The PT lessons: Hatred is an absolute bad, and so is fear. Grieving over the loss of your mom equals fear, and that's bad.[hr][/blockquote]What the hell are you talking about? Greiving, fear, anger CAN be bad if they are allowed to take control and cloud your judgement.[blockquote][hr]Aggression is an absolute bad. Wait, no it's not, since sometimes even Yoda has to resort to aggressive combat tactics to overwhelm an enemy.[hr][/blockquote]As Yoda will find out in Episode III, Agression is always bad.[blockquote][hr]Mass murderers are only human.[hr][/blockquote]Well they are aren't they?[blockquote][hr]Gungans don't base battlefield promotions on competence.[hr][/blockquote]It can be the same with humans as well.[blockquote][hr]And finally, there is a delicate and difficult line between slapstick comedy and insulting the audience.[hr][/blockquote]Only for people who have lost their sense of humor.[blockquote][hr]Ultimately, I would say the morality of the saga is so muddled and muddied that taking away life lessons from it is virtually impossible.[hr][/blockquote]Well if you don't even attempt to understand them, sure.[blockquote][hr]In my mind, Star Wars succeeds because it's fun, not because it gives me clues about how to live my life.[hr][/blockquote]I think if you opened your mind to the lessons you could be learning here, you would have more fun overall.