Go-Mer's Debate Thread

What six-year old is "reckless" in the way that a twenty-year old man would be? What six-year old has "much anger in him"?

That one. I'm just not convinced that the relationship between Obi Wan and Yoda is explained well enough by showing Yoda teach little kids. They seem a lot closer in the OT than the PT makes them out to be.....so far. Maybe it will change in EP 3 though.

On another note. Have a good weekend everyone.

 

Read my posts, Go-Mer, you're making me repeat myself.

"From the film itself again there is nothing said about them being the same age, just having the same traits."

Traits that Luke, a twenty year old man, traits like anger and recklessness, shares with a Kindergarten class of six year olds? You're really going to belittle a key scene of Luke's characterization by saying that Luke, who has had his entire life stripped away from him by the Empire, feels anger comporable to what a six year old would fee?

 

In Yoda's estimation the pain of being taken from his mother made Anakin too dangerous to train. Good thing Luke didn't give a crap about Owen and Beru.

 

Again, I have met some anrgy, reckless 6 year olds in my time. I am not sure why you think you have to lose a mother or parent to be angry.

The point is, just because they don't show how Obi-Wan was "just as reckless" or "anrgy" doesn't mean that isn't how it went.

In fact, going on just the film, Obi-Wan says he was no different, and there is nothing to contradict that.

 

Actually, both AC AND Stone asked really good questions about Obi-Wan's words from the OT and what we know from the PT thus far.

True, Episode 3 could contain Anakin's Knighthood. But, if he falls as a Padawan, does that really make him a Jedi KNIGHT? Really?

The stretching and contorting every time Obi-Wan speaks makes me think he should have joined a Circus Troupe.

 

Great questions, as long as one is willing to figure out the answers to them.

Again Obi-Wan is reffered to as a "Jedi Knight" even though he was a Padawan at the time during the TPM opening crawl. So there is a precedence of Padawans being called "Jedi Knights".

 

Ok, I'm going to be paraphrasing here, but if we follow Go-Mer's logic -

Yoda: Much anger I sense in him. Like his father.

Obi-Wan: Was I any different, when you taught me?

Yoda: Six years old, you were.

and -

Yoda (to Luke): You are reckless!

Obi-Wan: So was I, if you remember.

Yoda: Yeah, and I also remember having a pretty sweet Jedi temple full of cool props to train those brats with! Remember the Temple, you dope?!? Remember why we don't have it anymore? Yeah, that's right, because of the last time somebody came whining and crying to me about how some little punk needs training!


Ok, maybe Yoda doesn't sound exactly like that...

 

That is most certainly not -my- logic.

 

That's Yoda after 1 too many glasses of Jawa juice!

 

"That is most certainly not -my- logic."



That's true. As I was typing that I became much more interested in my lame joke than Go-Mer's logic.

 

But I do think this is what Yoda would/should have said.


Yoda: Much anger I sense in him. Like his father.

Obi-Wan: Was I any different, when you taught me?

Yoda: Six years old, you were.

 

Are you saying he should have said that? Why?

 

Because that would have answered OB1's question and been quite pertinent to the discussion.

 

You don't think he knew how old he was?

 

Is there anyone who wants to bring up any more "actual" contradictions?

You want to cover that 1000 years/1000 generations error? (That is, without resorting to cut and paste EU logic. Using EU cut and paste logic, you can explain why Yoda was really the Emperor, that doesn't (a) make it so, or (b) make it good writing.)


Anyway, I always saw it as everyone in the order is considered a "Jedi Knight" after they are taken on as a Padawan, but do not become a "fully trained Jedi Knight" until they pass the trials.

A valid assumation, based off what you've seen in the movies thus far -- just like assuming that Ben was Yoda's apprentice if all you've seen is the OT. But what if in E3 we learn that Anakin did make peace with Ben, became a knight, then fell away again? Then your assumation would be wrong. Although that would not bother you, you can then see how the bashers who believe the continuity is questionable feel.


I only mean to say those sanctuaries are closed minded, not the people who post there.

What, you mean those Sanctuaries are -- alive?? [face_shocked]

EDIT - clarity

 

I did cover that. They both understated the amount of time, and never specified exactly how long they were talking about.

Palpatine: "Over a thousand years."

Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Over a thousand generations."

Also, it is unlikely Anakin ever becomes a Jedi because he tells Obi-Wan that when he left him, he was but a learner, now he is the Master.

Just for the record, I am not against assumptions, when the actualities aren't presented. But when the actuallaties present themselves, the assumptions have to be dropped in favor of "the real deal".

 

"You don't think he knew how old he was?"


Of course he did, just as Yoda knew the answer to "Was I any different?". But Ben asked, bringing up the past and implying that he saw his younger self and Luke as being the same. Yoda would have answered in how he felt they were different, pointing out something that Ben knew, but was overlooking.

This touches on the fans displeasure with the inconsistancies between what was implied and what we're seeing in the PT. We're STAR WARS fans, we've seen the movies an unhealthy(I say that with a smile) number of times. When GL said he was going to make prequels, we wanted to see the past of STAR WARS. The past that Ben, Yoda, Vader, heck even Leia, talked about.

 

In Yoda's estimation the pain of being taken from his mother made Anakin too dangerous to train. Good thing Luke didn't give a crap about Owen and Beru.

LOL!

Loke: I'm going to learn the ways of the thumb, like my father before me.

Ooby-Doob: Oh, big sacrifice! Everyone you know is dead! Glad you could tear yourself away!

 

RogueSith, Obi-Wan was not trying to say that he was no younger than Luke he was saying he was no less reckless.

Unless you guys can come up with an "actual" contradiction instead of an "assumed" contradiction, then Lucas IS telling you how the things actually went, and it would seem you are not upset that he isn't making the prequels the way the classic trilogy characters spoke of the era, you are upset that he isn't making the prequels the way you assumed they would be based on what little is actually said about them.

 

Palpatine: "Over a thousand years."

Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Over a thousand generations."

Assuming your right -- you call that acceptable writing (I'm foregoing asking if it's good writing, we're beyond that)? Do you think if President Bush were addressing the nation, he'd say something like "I will not let this nation, which has stood for over a hundred years...!" Well, yeah, the USA has stood for over a hundred years, but he'd look like an idiot implying it's only stood for just over a hundred years, as oppose to the 200+ years it has actually stood. Do you go around saying things like "I'm going to cook over 10% of my dinner" when you mean you're cooking your entire dinner yourself? Who talks like that? Sorry, Gom, but as I typed this, your rebuttal makes less and less sense. Palpatine meant that the Republic hadn't been around for multiple thousands of years. He was trying to make a strong point in that scene, he wouldn't have belittle the lenght of time the Republic had stood.

 

But the differences between a six year old and a twenty year old, are immense and go way beyond the simple numbers of a forteen year gap. That is what Yoda would be pointing out. If someone compares themself at six to somebody else at twenty how do you not point out the difference?


OB1 - "I was angry when I started training, too.

Yoda - "But you were six years old. This guy is twenty. Ever hear of formative years?"

OB1 - "I was reckless when I started training, too."

Yoda - "Dude, you were SIX! Wake up! Your recklessness dealt with spilling your juice!"


(paraphrasing again)

 

How many years is considered a "generation" in your mind?

How does Yoda -not- point out their difference in age? Yoda goes on to say that he is too old!

 

"Just for the record, I am not against assumptions, when the actualities aren't presented. But when the actuallaties present themselves, the assumptions have to be dropped in favor of 'the real deal'."

But see, that's the thing...these are works of fiction. As such there is no "real deal". There are only decisions made on Lucas' part as to how to tell the story. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many others, many of the decisions Lucas has made defy logic. With a minimum of tweaking, the events of the PT could have been made to flow seamlessly with the hints that were given in the OT as to what came before. But Lucas chose the storytelling equivalent of moving the foundation blocks around after the house has already been built. Then we're supposed to sit there and pretend that the dishes in the upstairs china cupboard aren't jostling around noisily.

 

OK, the "Was I any different" line, I want to address that.

Let's examine the scene. What's happening?: OW and Luke are trying to convince Yoda to train Luke. OW throws out the line "Was I even different?" OK, let's assume that when Yoda started training a 6 year old OW, he was impatient and angry -- a reasonable assumation based on that dialog, yes? So, was he even different than Luke at that point? YES!!!! OW was very young, and in an early stage of character and intellectual development when he began his training. Luke, by ESB, is a man (as in, an adult). People can change, but behavioral patterns are well ingrained in a person by then, and thus, it is difficult for a person of 21 to change his personality. For a child of six, he's still developing it. So there is a world of difference between the two. Yoda's smart, he would know this, so why would like one line of dialog easily sway him? Odds are, he wouldn't, unless he knew Ben had a point, but he didn't have a point, not at all, if OW was indeed six when he started training with Yoda.

 

Yes AgentCoop, it -is- fiction, but it is George Lucas' fiction. He can't try and read everyone's mind to figure out what other people "assumed" the story was going to be. Even if he could, there would be so many different assumptions that he couldn't possibly fulfill them all.

All he can do is not contradict what he has already done. He can't concern himself with the "blanks" you guys filled in on your own.

If your china is jostling around, it is because of your assumptions, not anything Lucas has "changed" on you.