Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, Jun 3, 2013.
R'hllor has confronted me.
Zeus has confronted me.
Allah has confronted me.
R'llor lol. The red woman does remind me of those zealots.
Superman has confronted me.
You really think I don't believe in God because scientists told me so? I guess you don't know the first thing about atheism, then. I am an atheist for two reasons:
1) There is no evidence for the existence of a god.
2) Even if the Christian god was real, I would not worship it, because of all the horrible things it has done throughout the Bible.
I'll give religion one thing. It's fun as hell to holy war infidels, organize a pagan faith, revitalize a dying religion, and mend the Great Schism and turn Catholicism into a heresy.
I am far too obsessed with Crusader Kings II.
I keep meaning to get that game. Y U NO STEAM SALE
There's been tons of sales. There was one a couple of weeks ago when the newest DLC came out.
Wow, get off CK2's jock people.
Because this thread was going so well before it came up.
(I mean why hasn't it been $5 like a proper steam sale. )
All this talk of hell reminds me of a pretty good documentary by Andy Hamilton, the writer and star of Old Harry's Game (a radio sitcom set in Hell). This documentary details the invention and evolution of the devil and Hell in Christianity and also contains jokes, sketches and sarcasm:
Didn't she admit to being a troll or something?
Well I'm sold. I am an atheist no more. Screw you Dawkins you hack.
1.) i made a better version of that joke upthread.
2.) i think that's pretty obvious that she was kidding. she even breaks composure and starts to crack up for like a nanosecond at the end there
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
Wait.. are you saying you performed these experiments and collected all of this research yourself?
1) There is, at least, some evidence for the existence of God. It may not be convincing to you, but it is there. For instance, all of the people who have claimed to have experienced God in real and clear ways, over thousands and thousands of years. In order for God to be nonexistent, every single one of those instances must be false. In order for God to be true, only one of those instances need be true. But that's the logic. The evidence is simply the probably billions of people who claim to have experienced God.
2) This is an interesting spin on a pretty usual and understandable problem with God: suffering/evil in the world. You say, specifically, though, in the Bible. If you'd like to point out any specific examples, I'd be happy to explain them, but as for a broad, sweeping explanation.... Basically, this argument presupposes that the things in the Bible are true ("if the Christian god was real"), but they are just really messed up. But if the Bible is true, then he is fair and just. Anyone who's life he ended, he also began. And, in fact, if God exists, anyone who's life ends, God is the cause of that ending. You may feel that ending was unjust or undeserved, but the gift of life itself was also undeserved, as there was nothing done by you to warrant it, and if there was, it wouldn't be a gift. Same goes for grace. Everyone in the world is messed up, but God extends every single one salvation for free. Any seeming injustice in the world, I think, is made up for in that way. At the heart of Christianity is God dying for his enemies, while praying for their forgiveness.
But as for the larger question of injustice in general (and there's a lot of ways to slice this. Here is just one avenue.):
An excerpt from Tim Keller's Reason for God:
Evil and Suffering May Be (If Anything) Evidence for God
C.S. Lewis described how he had originally rejected the idea of God because of the cruelty of life. Then he came to realize evil was even more problematic for his new atheism. In the end, he realized that suffering provided a better argument for God's existence than one against it.
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I gotten this idea of "just" and "unjust"?...What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?...Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too- for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies....Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple.
Lewis recognized that modern objections to God are based on a sense of fair play and justice. People, we believe, ought not to suffer, be excluded, die of hunger or oppression. But the evolutionary mechanism of natural selection depends on death, destruction, and violence of the strong against the weak- these things are all perfectly natural. On what basis, then, does the atheist judge the natural world to be horribly wrong, unfair, and unjust? The nonbeliever in God doesn't have a good basis for being outraged at injustice, which, as Lewis points out, was the reason for objecting to God in the first place. If you are sure that this natural world is unjust and filled with evil, you are assuming the reality of some extra-natural (or supernatural) standard by which to make your judgement. The philosopher Alvin Plantinga said it like this:
Could there really be any such thing as horrifying wickedness [if there were no God and we just evolved]? I don't see how. There can be such a thing only if there is a way that rational creatures are supposed to live, obliged to live....A [secular] way of looking at the world has no place for genuine moral obligation of any sort...and thus no way to say there is such a thing as genuine and appalling wickedness. Accordingly, if you think there really is such a thing as horrifying wickedness (...and not just an illusion of some sort), then you have a powerful...argument [for the reality of God].
In short, the problem of tragedy, suffering, and injustice is a problem for everyone. It is at least as big a problem for nonbelief in God as for belief. It is therefore a mistake, though an understandable one, to think that if you abandon belief in God it somehow makes the problem of evil easier to handle.
You forget the other religions where their own followers have experienced visions of their god or gods. If all those thousands of experiences are true for Christianity then they are true for the followers of other religions.
What about all of the people who claimed to have seen Bigfoot, aliens, ghosts, Nessie, etc.? Are they all lying or mistaken?
Life isn't a gift for everyone.
Evil is defined by us and it has changed with the times. There are things that the most civilized socities did centuries ago that we consider barbaric. No doubt a thousand years from now future societies will look upon our time the same way. Perhaps they will think it's cruel that we kill animals for sport and put their heads up on our walls. That we have the death penalty. That so many live in poverty while so few have more resources than most others can imagine.
It will happen. It always has.
But the bottom line is that we have concepts of right and wrong because we are social animals and are better off working together. When we do that, we can broaden our skills and collective knowledge. The mechanic needs the doctor, just like the doctor needs the mechanic. Combining our skills allows us specialize and move forward as a species. And there must be basic social laws in order to hold things together. This is where morality comes from.
It's really not that hard to understand.
Claiming to experience God is not evidence. Personal anecdotes and experiences cannot and will not be considered when it comes to scientific data. Thousands of people claim to have seen ghosts or UFOs or Bigfoot or other phenomena. That doesn't make them true.
i listened to the new kanye record and he says he is a god. take that atheists.
Pointing towards the whole God exists topic I have my thoughts set.
I do believe in the existence in God, however, I do not feel that it is too necessary to shove beliefs down peoples throats. When I myself am confronted by someone who has no faith in the existence of God and they ask me why I believe, a simple response that all can use should/ could be
"Everyone believes in something. Even if they believe that there is nothing to believe in like God." at least they believe in something...
I believe that Kanye exists.