JCC God Exists.

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, Jun 3, 2013.

?

God Exists.

yes 51 vote(s) 40.5%
no 40 vote(s) 31.7%
nnnnnNNNNOOOOOOOOO!!!! 22 vote(s) 17.5%
dunno 35 vote(s) 27.8%
no curr 5 vote(s) 4.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    there's actually posts from the time of the First Great Crisis where he talks about the pros and cons of becoming a mormon, before he settled on catholocism to fill the gaping hole in his being left by getting out of the quiverfull cult he was raised in. i ran across them not too long ago... i think they might have been in the early pages of the senate mormon thread. maybe @jp-30 can fish them out for us... this really is one of my favorite jc will-they-or-wont-theys to endlessly rehash, right up there with the other shoe dropping on arlon's andy kaufmann steeze

    originally my money was on him dropping religion entirely and overcompensating by being reborn as an (perhaps understandably given his/their background) overzealous anti-religious atheist, ala vivec or espaldapalabras, but as the years wear on its becoming apparent he might at the very least have a few more intermediate steps left to go first. the orthodox church is a much beloved stopover for ex-fundies, (see the wayward schaffer child, for one example), and its just a stone's throw from his current catholic steeze, esp the flavor of catholic he presently associates with. course ive pitched this option pretty hard for a while now and i might have poisoned my own well
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Jun 16, 2013
  2. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 9
    Wow... you've really given this a lot of thought.
    V-2 and Rogue_Ten like this.
  3. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    a person's got to have a hobby
  4. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    Rogue_Ten: Resident Religious Futures Analyst.
    Rogue_Ten likes this.
  5. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Many people don't believe in God because organized religion has represented him in the worst possible way, and God never stepped in to stop that and other atrocities.
    This causes an agnostic leaning, I would be agnostic myself if I didn't know what I know today about God purposes and Satan's challenges to God, that has been ongoing since almost the beginning of human civilization.
    One thing to note, organised Christianity was an epic fail from the second century until about the 1800's, and then a few people started to get thing right again like Henry Grew.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Grew

  6. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    well?? what do you know, man? spit it out it sounds pretty darn important
    Ender_Sai and V-2 like this.
  7. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    We didn't have this problem when the Gods of Mount Olympus still reigned.
  8. MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2004
    star 6
    But Kratos killed them all.

    Kratos = Yahweh?
  9. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Ah so we should all be worshipping Kratos then since it's never clear whether he died or not at the end.
  10. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    No, YHVH turned all of the other gods into demons and then became a giant floating head. The he sort of just holed up in a big pyramid for a while until someone came to punch him.

    [IMG]
    Last edited by Ramza, Jun 16, 2013
  11. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    Must play whatever this is.
  12. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Shin Megami Tensei II. Stupid hard, but pretty fun.
  13. jedimikey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 2012
    star 2
    This.

    From the Tao Te Ching: "Throw away holiness and wisdom, and people will be a hundred times happier. Throw away morality and justice, and people will invariably do the right thing. Throw away industry and profit, and there will be no thieves."

    "Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom. Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power."

    Lao-tzu was THE MAN. Jedi philosophy is loosely based on Taoism, BTW. ;)
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  14. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Care to share?
  15. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    Appeal to secret knowledge is generally a conspiracy theorist tactic.
    V-2 and Arawn_Fenn like this.
  16. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Interestingly enough, the translation of the Bible that I own uses the term "Sheol" in pretty much everyplace the far more commonplace King James Version uses the term "Hell." Sheol, as I understand it, is not a place of torment for the damned, but a place of purification for both the "righteous" and the "wicked."

    How we got from Sheol to Hell, I have no idea...
  17. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    It has to do with Rome, mostly, but I'm not going to get into it because my knowledge on the subject is pretty rusty.
  18. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
  19. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
  20. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    Dear lil' e,

    Certainly God is not strictly necessary in the context described—or indeed in any life—one can live one's life oblivious to God being in it and live a good life. That is to say, it is NOT my belief that you will be judged by God should you choose not to welcome Him/Her into your life.

    You are going to Heaven anyway.

    This is because it IS my belief that that we are all One—that we are ALL a part of God; the All-In-All—and that understanding this/experiencing this changes EVERYTHING. That if we are all One, what you do to one, you do to yourself—i.e., to hurt another is to—at the greater level—hurt Oneself.

    This connectivity, is now/is becoming acknowledged by science—that the energy Matrix which makes up ALL Life, is indeed a Whole. This is not to say that science acknowledges God—it obviously does not—however, I believe a time is coming when it may; that people on both sides of the 'fence'—both people of faith AND people of science—will finally edge closer together and come to understand that it is not one thing or the other. But that it is both.

    I would also point out here that IMHO it will, in all likelihood, ironically, be science that brings the two camps closer together as it starts to answer some of the bigger 'unanswerable' Universal questions.

    Lots of Man Love,

    Jay Jay

    P.S. I know. And, I know.


    -JR :)
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  21. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
  22. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    To echo Jay Jay, the scriptures of my faith says in no uncertain terms that if any religion ignores or denigrates scientific knowledge, then it is "mere superstition."
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Jun 19, 2013
  23. hear+soul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 6
    brace yourself.

    [edit: I do apologize for the imbalance between the time-commitment required by your video vs. this post, though I know you don't mind reading, as I believe you have read most of this thread, based on your likes alone. That said, I understand if you don't get through all of it, and my thoughts directly in response to your video end with the bold text. :) ]

    @V-2
    1- this may seem overly simplistic to you, but humans are not pigeons. That scientist is not God. That said, I agree that (unfounded, I add for clarification) superstitions are foolish.
    2- Like the video implies, thinking you got an A+ on an exam because of your socks is simply not correct. But there is a reason. If you devote your time and energy towards doing well on an exam, or actually understanding the material, you will succeed (sometimes we run into roadblocks, even when we try, but I have never seen any that are insurmountable).
    3- All of these actions in the video are, observably, without effect. And, observably, irrational. Walking in circles gets you food? No. Although, to double back on my point, it is understandable, given their perspective.

    Now, this is a bad comparison, because following Christ does have an effect. Even if we remove the God element, which is critical, as it is very nearly, if not actually, impossible to do what follows without the understanding of love, freedom, redemption, forgiveness, and grace that Jesus and the Bible offer... but even if we remove God from the equation... what happens if even one person is completely devoted to serving others? loving others? This is not walking in a circle. This is breaking the chain. Hate is overcome by love.

    This is observable even in your own life. Think of someone you have a problem with in your life, minor or major, maybe riddled with anger and hurt... Try dropping yourself in the situation and focusing your efforts on understanding them, even if you think they're wrong. Try listening and helping, even if they don't reciprocate. Try sacrificing yourself for them, in love. Maybe you do this, but it is not characteristic of the world and it does have effects, even if, observably, from your vantage point, there is none (and often there is). You may brighten their day- just by being kind. That may enable them to do the same for someone else. This could have an immense domino effect-like impact, on lives or in one. You could brighten their life. You could find a friend. You will lose an enemy, even if only from within.

    4- Even in the human experiment, you are setting out with the conclusion that there is no God. This leads to the conclusion, obviously, that there is no God. Both experiments are designed so that the cause of food or points is random. Within the human experiment, they are led to believe that they are to do something that causes the points. They are led to believe that the points are important, even if only for fun."Score 100 points within 30 minutes to open the door. Open the door to win the key," the walls say. So, they are simply lied to. "(you) score 100 points" is the grammatical translation of that phrase.

    These are demonstrations of an idea, not proof that one is correct.

    And they are false demonstrations of that idea. When led to believe that actions will have a desired effect, provided with said effect, then left with insufficient data on the cause(s) of the desired effect, beings will search for the data. Now, given nothing to go on, they may draw conclusions based on what happens in that search, and act on them. Why? every effect has a cause. That's one of the reasons this question burns on all of our hearts and minds.

    If God truly didn't exist, I don't think you'd care. And why try and convince me? Why evangelize me? I am the weak, lesser human, clinging to my weak, lesser understanding of nature. Allow me to live my life as I see fit, provided I don't hurt you. Let my kind die off as man evolves towards godhood, then ultimate extinction. Or, maybe, we invent a time-machine and spaceships and medicine to be immortal and find all the inhabitable planets and rescue every human ever and live forever.

    Maybe kill off everyone that disagrees and move forward. Why not? seriously?

    A cunning man, in this situation, might even use my beliefs against me, in order to cause me to do what you see fit, such as, perhaps, caring for earth better, if that's what you want to see done. If all religious peoples are blind, lead us along. It wouldn't be hard. Dig in the Bible. Find the verses. Use them.

    Or, just live your life. Isn't that what life is about, then? (that's another funny thing... even if we avoid a meaning to all of life, our individual lives we must fill with purpose) If there is no God, do whatever makes you happy now, for it's all we have. Why try and dissuade someone from the happiness they have found, even if it's false?

    Is it just the politics? And even then, unless you're a small minority of the population on certain issues, what's holding you back from being happy?

    My main obstacle in life is me. I mismanage my life (money, career, relationships, goals) sometimes. Based on what I've observed, this is the case for everyone I know, literally. Sometimes external bad things happen, but, generally, people are unhappy and it is because of us, and not them.

    The problem is, most people's god is themselves, and they hate the idea of their god being wrong.

    If God doesn't exist, I am the most important person on the planet. There is no reason to act according to any other philosophy. Even to someone who said earlier they choose to act morally because they are above all that for x, y, and z: your morals are the most important, your knowledge is correct, your actions are justified and you are the best, and right, and understand the universe, life, and all of existence. People should follow you.

    People choose not to believe in God because they don't want to become/fear becoming less.

    We don't want to change. We are comfortable. We are right. You are in the way of me.

    Pride.

    "True humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less." -C.S. Lewis

    This is against the flow of our cultures, our world, and ourselves. It is the lesson of my life, so far. I am still learning it, in Christ.

    And the amazing thing of it is, we are not less when we have a relationship with God, we are more. More than limited to a random, meaningless existence (meaningful only in what we deem meaningful, and therefore, as everything will eventually die, ultimately fleeting). More than just one more person on the planet. More than even our passions, desires, and pleasures. We are loved and cherished. We are above the creation. We were died for. We have a purpose. We have a meaning. Joy and hope and love are real and everlasting, not momentary pleasure points. Every wrong will be righted. Justice will be done. Brokenness will be healed completely.

    In kneeling, we learn to truly stand.

    And back to the debate... you will never prove God doesn't exist. Think about this: I can have proof in my life that God exists (like answered prayer, dreams, my heart's testimony, logic, or witnessing the truth in this stuff lived out), or someone could do a miracle (like parting a sea or walking on water) and prove that God does exist, but you can never prove he doesn't. This "scientific" endeavor that many devote their lives to is futile. (science in quotes because it is a tool- it does not have a mind of its own) Man is so absurdly limited in knowledge and understanding, when compared to the universe, even the ability to learn and discover... We can't even get to the next planet. Even if we could travel throughout space... What about past space? What about other dimensions? (as secular scientists have theorized about)

    Actually, I did think of a way to prove it, or at least that Christianity is false: if you could time-travel, you could evaluate the events of every religion, first-hand. Even then, though, God? what about before time?

    And even if we can get to all that stuff, can we do it before the universe dies out? because, contrary to.. popular secular belief, l'll call it, within that context, life ends in death. It was an accident- it was a happy, terrible, and horrific accident- and it will end.

    entropy ftl.

    //end wall
    Last edited by hear+soul, Jun 19, 2013
  24. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I got about 4 paragraphs in before skimming, then losing all interest. Whatever you said could surely be said a lot more efficiently, with less repetition and fluff.

    We are not pigeons, but we share a common ancestry with them and are subject to the same laws of evolution. We experiment on 'simple' creatures like this because there are fewer variables. The video had a demonstration of humans behaving in the same manner. The experiments have been repeated so often and are so predictable that they turn up on entertainment shows like the one the clip is from.

    I'm not evangelising to you, I find you an interesting antagonising agent, that's all. You can't go on in arguments like this unless you understand why you, as an evolved ape, are prone to belief in gods - or at least understand and empathise with the many people (including religious people) who make this argument.

    I understand your idea of what proof is, but I reject it. I'll never be able to disprove gods, especially to one whose mind is so clouded by evangelism, but I don't care. The onus will never be on me to prove your imaginary friend doesn't exist.
    epic and harpuah like this.
  25. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    The burden of proof always falls upon the person claiming a thing exists. You think God exists? Prove it. Pure, unambiguous peer-reviewed data.

    Those who reject your unproven claim do not need to provide any evidence of their own. "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
    Last edited by timmoishere, Jun 19, 2013
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.