JCC God Exists.

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, Jun 3, 2013.

?

God Exists.

yes 51 vote(s) 40.5%
no 40 vote(s) 31.7%
nnnnnNNNNOOOOOOOOO!!!! 22 vote(s) 17.5%
dunno 35 vote(s) 27.8%
no curr 5 vote(s) 4.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Do you have some big logbook of cases showing where gay people were tortured to make them accept that homosexuality was wrong? Because I sort of just thought they accepted being told that as a child, before they had any terribly distinct sexual urges (or at least could make sense of them), and then later decided personally that the things they had been taught were untrue.
  2. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    Who said anything about torture? That is an irrelevancy that you have injected into this conversation for God knows what reason in order to make the moral distinction you seem hellbent on making.

    You have an annoying habit of falling back on simplistic thought patterns and simplistic moral distinctions when they confirm what you want to believe but also espousing complexity and ambiguity when it suits your argument.
  3. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    Christian fundamentalism is clearly a weapon in the arsenal of POTENTIAL child abuse. My own mother's experience with her narcissistic amoral mother confirms that, for me at least. The omnipresent threats of damnation which amount to little more than unquestionable thought policing.

    Christian indoctrination is not necessarily always ABUSIVE, but I would say that it is a very rare situation indeed when it is not a form of mind control, grosse or subtle as that form may take, ranging from strong social pressure to emotional blackmail.
  4. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    I don't know EBB; if a kid was conditioned to believe in neo-Nazism and extremely racist, right wing views society might take the (reasonable) view that this is a form of abuse because of the conditioning. No matter how benign the intent is with religion it's still taking a young, impressionable mind and inducing compliance with a particular framework on pain of eternal suffering for non-compliance. It's the biggest-stake carrot and stick approach you can imagine; I can't see how it is anything but abusive.

    I'm rather indifferent though to claims it's not intended that way. Taking Aboriginal children from their parents to settle them with white families and breed out their aboriginality was not intended as genocide either, yet it absolutely was.
    V-2 likes this.
  5. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Why are you randomly CAPITALIZING words?

    Your approach to this whole issue seems strange. Neither end of the spectrum "strong social pressure to emotional blackmail" are terribly problematic. They are exactly the same range of reactions people have to normal disagreements over strongly felt issues. Once you've watered down the concept so much, I fail to see why anyone should care.

    On the other hand, there is a body of clearly abusive, detrimental techniques that can be used to try and induce agreement. We have conventionally given these techniques labels like "torture" or "mind control." These are the ones that we should care about, because they are intrinsically damaging.

    EDIT: You guys realize the English dictionary has words outside of "brainwashing" to describe the phenomena where someone teaches another person something you don't agree with?
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, Jun 26, 2013
  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    [face_laugh]
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 26, 2013
  7. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6


    Wha? :confused: Are you sure you're not an agnostic?
    Last edited by ShaneP, Jun 26, 2013
  8. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Sounds more like a Deist.
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    You mean responding to subjectivity - "ridiculous" claims - with more subjectivity, i.e. 'having faith'??

    For the time being, I'll play along with the premise running through these boards that a religions' truth claims/propositions aren't true or false on their own merits, but whether someone finds the claims 'ridiculous' or not

    Do all religions have equally 'ridiculous' claims? If not, can we 'grade' religions based on them? The one with the MOST 'ridiculous'claims is the LEAST LIKELY to be true, right?

    Teaser question:

    Is it Christianity (in ANY of it's forms or denominations) that marginalizes a particular gender not only in this lifetime, but EVEN IN THE AFTER-LIFE??? (this question touches not only upon the 'ridiculous' angle but also on the favorite one about 'fairness'* that skeptics often use - see 'theodicy').

    * that's not fair!!! :_|


    Like when The State does it, right? I agree......


    On the matter of 'coercion' and 'brain-washing' or 'indoctrination', I ask the same question:

    Do the truth claims/propositions of a religion being true or false depend on whether it's precepts are propagated by coercion/indoctrination/brain-washing? Can we 'grade' religions based on whether they do this or not? For example, if a religion says that 'apostasy' or leaving the religion is a crime punishable by death , are the truth claims of that religion in doubt? i.e. "If it has the truth, would the threat of death for leaving be even necessary?"

    (Note that I am NOT saying that these things would make the religion in question untrue)

    Does Christianity make the above kind of rule regarding apostasy?

    Should skeptics/atheists maybe re-think the 'all religions are equal' position that's favored by secular culture???

    edit:

    On 'burning Hell':

    One MAJOR and extremely OLD Christian denomination does NOT teach a 'burning in HELL foreva!!" doctrine - The Greek Eastern Orthodox Church (The 'damned' will be in God's presence too, but they will hate it, basically. ) And they don't teach the 'atonement substitution' doctrine, that God could only save people from their sins by putting those sins on an innocent person - like Christ - and punishing him in our place. They believe that Christ saved us by taking on human nature, thus making humanity take part in 'Theosis', that is becoming more god-like.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 26, 2013
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    What? Tosche you have actually sucked all sense out of the conversation and I feel soiled from reading the above.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  11. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Staying too long in atheist/skeptic echo-chambers will do that to you. :D
    Maybe you would respond better to a Jack Chick tract???


    part Two:

    In terms of 'fairness' or theodicy, i.e. "Why would a good god allow X?" , I'm amazed at people on the boards having a problem with Christianity/The Bible/The Church based on those things, while at the same time idolizing a series of movies - Star Wars - where:

    You might have been a good person your whole life, but if you die not belonging to the 'right' organization - i.e. aren't a Jedi - NO FORCE GHOST FOR YOU!!!!! [face_shame_on_you] But, if you did bad/evil deeds for 20 something years, but then saved your son right before you die.......BANG!! YOU GET A FORCE GHOST cuz you wur da Chozen One!!!

    Yeah, that's 'fair'. [face_laugh]

    "why did the Force allow slavery in the Republic? That's not fair!"

    "why did the Force allow Sith/Sidious to treacherously destroy most of the Jedi???!!!!"

    "the Force is a big meannie!!! I am an A-Forceist!!!!" :_|[face_rofl]
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 26, 2013
  12. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    I've always done that. Why do people suddenly care now? It is just a way to mimic speech by showing emphasis.

    We will just have to agree to disagree then because your entire statement I just quoted sounds authoritarian and batshit crazy to me.

    That is not what is going on. I am interested in stripping away the pretense that the memetic propagation of Christianity does not involve coercion. I would argue that 10,000 other things we teach children involve coercion as well, but people don't get defensive over "which way to set the dinner table".
    Last edited by Emperor_Billy_Bob, Jun 26, 2013
  13. Coruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 6
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Coruscant, Jun 26, 2013
  14. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Wew, glad this is not a Senate thread.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  15. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    It's close to that but he did say a god we couldn't know or comprehend. It sounds like a hybrid of the two. But it doesn't sound like an atheist.
  16. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    You don't see the discrepancy between some Star Wars fans and how they judge SW versus how they judge religion in general or the Bible/Christianity in particular?

    I've only been playing along - for the sake of argument - with the modern-day popular* premise that a religion's truth claims stand or fall based upon how one feels about them ('fairness'), or whether he or she finds the claims 'ridiculous', or whether people are indoctrinated into belief of said claims. I see a lot of hypocrisy and double-standards coming from a public that will do the above regarding 'traditional' religion, but will uncritically and naively buy into 'The DaVinci Code' and other Dan Brown offerings.

    *or at least popular on internet forums or youtube.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 26, 2013
  17. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    In my earlier post I was going to put down that many things parents do would be considered coercive as well. But, when it comes to beliefs people take it more seriously.
  18. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5

    Star Wars is fiction. Religion affects people in real life
    V-2 likes this.
  19. DarthTunick Arena Streak for Colors Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2000
    star 10
    But Star Wars does affect people in real life.

    :p
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  20. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    Star Wars IS real life. It is our world that is merely the illusion.
  21. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 6

    yeah then it would be really stupid and boring
    V-2 and harpua like this.
  22. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Religion is fiction too. It's unfortunate that people take it so seriously.
    Last edited by timmoishere, Jun 26, 2013
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 6
    FTR, the "will of the Force" and "destiny" aspects of Star Wars make me want to beat the **** out if something.

    And I've been told at least 763744 times on these boards that I'm missing "the whole point" of Star Wars. No, I'm not, because believe me, if the "whole point" of Star Wars were a belief in unquestioning allegiance to some Almighty Power and blaming the "will" of that Almighty Power for everything from death to running out of wine, I would have given up years ago.

    I ignore any aspect of the Force that does not involve individual choice and individual responsibility and Star Wars still works for me.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jun 26, 2013
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  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Which is precisely why I don't judge the truth or falsity of a religion's claims based upon how the stories in it's holy book make me 'feel'. I don't conflate the truth of a claim with external matters such as aesthetics, or whether I was 'indoctrinated' to believe something (which I was not). That being the case, I'm being entirely consistent between my world-view on religion versus how I relate to SW.

    anakinfansince1983, you and I agree pretty much about those aspects of SW. You're also being consistent with your beliefs, to boot.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 26, 2013
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  25. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Unnnecessary.
    Last edited by JoinTheSchwarz, Jun 26, 2013
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