Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, Jun 3, 2013.
I consider myself agnostic, so dunno.
It's strange that this is upsetting you guys so much. It would be one thing if he was taking up the James Bond thread with this sort of thing. But he's discussing theology in a thread where that is literally the only topic. It's not that hard to avoid.
Jabba-Wocky: Sticking up for Team Christianity since 2003
hear+soul - no,there is definitely froth. Look, your 'testimony' is typical of hardcore born again christians who have found Jesus at a low point in their lives. I'm sorry that you obviously fell on hard times but am very happy that you have picked yourself up and found happiness. All I am suggesting is that your religious fervour comes across as somewhat insecure and defensive, like if you concede anything, anything at all, then the whole mirage will vanish and you'll end up ****** again. It's kind of cross eyed fanatical. It does't have to be that way is all.
I'm here. I'm not frothing. If anything, I'm a little nervous and scared. It's not an easy thing to do, for me.
about receiving Jesus at low points:
If you believe in sin, everyone who says yes to what Jesus has done for us is at a low point in their lives, which is that of living separate from God. Even if things are, by worldly standards, going well, oftentimes there is an emptiness. This is not a Christian message, alone, it's plain to see in how everyone is seeking fulfillment in one direction or another. Even atheists, who hold science, essentially, as their religion, are seeking the truth and purpose and meaning for their lives (perhaps something like, live well now, for tomorrow is not promised. contribute to society, leave a legacy, better humankind, because that is the only way our lives, alone and together, will last- or many possible things).
And many have accepted Christs at points in their lives that most would consider secure. Most of the Christians I know don't have stories quite as drastic as mine, not to boast at all. I just went pretty far down the rabbit hole... it wasn't fun. It is not necessary to do that to become a Christian, I promise you.
about my testimony (no quotes necessary, if you go by definition) being attributable to my own power:
Thank you for your encouraging words, though I didn't pick myself up, I tried, again and again. No, it was God who saved me. For a specific example, I was on a medication at the time I truly turned to Christ. I used to think about killing myself to make myself feel better- to feel emptiness- to be free of responsibility, though it would ultimately make me feel worse... well, this medication didn't do much except cause my brain to skip when I thought of these things, so that I couldn't. I had not control over it, but when I tried to think about killing myself, it would skip to something else. That's my best description. After a month or so of taking it, I woke up in the middle of the night and could think of nothing but killing myself. I was compelled to leave the couch I was sleeping on in search of the kitchen knives, but cried out to God- I just wanted to go home, but I had none. He spoke in me that I am always home when I am with him. He is my home, and He is always with me. I was weeping and prayed what little of the Bible I knew then, the first few verses of Psalm 23, over and over, and the thoughts subsided. I fell asleep. I ditched the medication and it's been a long journey, but I am healed of depression- healed- with no medicine or doctors except God and his Word, and my life has never been the same. I promise you I have stumbled since, but I am caught in the rivers of grace. So, once again, no, I didn't save myself, but, once again, thank you.
What would you have me concede, LostOnHoth?
It may seem fanatical, but that is because it is radical. Jesus was a radical. A lot of people didn't like what he had to say. That's partly why they killed him.
Like Debo said, it's all or nothing. I may not be called to literally lay down my life, maybe I will be, but I am called to die to myself, which means, sometimes, having uncomfortable conversations, for both parties. I'd much rather let everyone be the way they are and do my own thing, by myself, but that's selfish. Jesus says, "follow me." That's all that I am trying to do.
Though, once again, I have only responded to assertions others have put forth, excepting the Tim Keller video and, to a degree, my testimony, but I couldn't hold that back when you questioned my belief and resolve.
And as has been pointed out, thankfully, this is not the craziest discussion to have in this thread.
Trust me when I tell you that I don't question your belief and resolve. But you picked yourself up, you saved yourself, so be proud of that. You may have used a crutch called 'God' but all the credit really goes to you. Having said that, I'm going to quietly sneak out of this thread now.
I've run the gamut - from Christian theist, to strict atheist, to agnostic, to... I don't know. I don't believe in the gods of the world's religions, per se, but the older I get the more I realize how little we know. I'm much more open to the possibility a god, of sorts, than I was when I first left theism and entered into skepticism. I just don't believe it operates according to human concepts of justice, mercy, etc., or intercedes according to the whims and desires of human beings like those that subscribe to western religions seem to believe.
One thing I'm sure of - smug atheists annoy me as much as religious fundamentalists. "So certain, are you."
Because that assertion certainly hasn't gotten old over the years.
Uh... wut? because I share a sentiment that's been around for a while, I shouldn't feel that way? I've no problem with theists or atheists. It's smugness and fundamentalism I detest. Sue me.
I'm saying I find smug condescension derived from perceived annoyance at both camps to be, ironically, rather annoying.
Hmmmm... sorry you feel that way, and sorry you find my comment smug and feel the need to meet me in turn.
Nobody on this planet really has the answers to the big questions, anyone pretending to have them is full of it
I could say that perceived annoyance at perceived condescension derived from perceived annoyance at both camps is annoying, too. But that'd be silly.
In the words of Indiana Jones, "Prepare to meet Kali. In HELL!"
Or rather, John Milton.
If I could catch god in red ball...
The first thing that I'd like to do...
Is throw him away at least once a day...
And force him to fight Pikachu...
You don't know rogue ten if you think this is the topic of the thread.
I know Rogue_Ten so I know there is no topic.
It was a reasonable inference from this:
No. I just told you it literally was not by my own power. I had no control over the chemicals or thoughts in my head, or feelings in my heart. I'm not denying I was present, but he worked through me and in me and He saved me. You cannot deny this, unless you can disprove God, which you cannot. You weren't there. It's like telling me I didn't see the Redskins beat the Cowboys to get into the playoffs. It may seem improbable, but it happened.
let me rephrase this: you are telling me, in so many words, that actual experiences that happened to me did not occur. And you're saying that feelings I had, I didn't feel. I'll leave it at that.
God is more than my crutch. He is the light, so that I may see. He has given me the very legs by which I physically walk, and the motivation and direction, but which I walk in life. He is my all and my everything. You're analogy is far too limiting.
Perhaps you're wise to say what you think and bounce, but let me take this opportunity to question your belief and resolve.
I ask again,
What would you have me concede, LostOnHoth?
[Otherwise, have a very good night and it was good discussing this matter with you. Thank you. ]
I just wanted to say, that, while I liked your comment, certainty, in and of itself, is not necessarily indicative of wrongness. But I know that's not exactly what you meant and I agree with the sentiment.
If we believe that there are answers, it is not illogical that they could be found out. I would ask, on what basis do you believe this?
Damn, I was hoping we could engage in a smug-off.
But isn't that, in the end, the real topic?
On the basis that as humans our understanding into the true nature of the universe and creation is incredibly limited. What we don't know far outweighs what we do. And that anyone who claims to truly understand the nature of these questions is full of it. That is a universal truth and part of the human condition.
Hear the soul, are you bothered by Jesus' agrarian socialism?
Can't say yes with no proof.
Can't say no with no evidence.