JCC God Exists.

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, Jun 3, 2013.

?

God Exists.

yes 51 vote(s) 40.5%
no 40 vote(s) 31.7%
nnnnnNNNNOOOOOOOOO!!!! 22 vote(s) 17.5%
dunno 35 vote(s) 27.8%
no curr 5 vote(s) 4.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    I suspect it's the part where it's inconvenient for preconceived notions and undermines his argument that is based on shifting word meanings around until things fit into his convoluted and unsubstantiated point.
    Last edited by Lowbacca_1977, Jul 3, 2013
    Lord Vivec likes this.
  2. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    That's where you go wrong.
  3. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Vivec may have been borderline incorrect (or at least clumsily wording things), but your reaction makes no sense.

    It's a misinterpretation of the text to call Marxism anti-religion. The comment about the opiate of the masses was in support of religion; to distill it down to the simplest explanation, Marx's view was that religion offered the proletariat solace and that was crucial. Over time, socialism would provide the same solace and eventually replace religion.

    So far from being anti-religion or even athiestic, it was in support of political religion and saw socialism and communism as pseudo-religions.
  4. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    So, Marx and co. were only 'misguided' in their belief that the socialist state SHOULD replace 'traditional' religion as a surrogate religion? Well, to that I say, 'beliefs have consequences'....right?
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jul 3, 2013
  5. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    Since, I guess this role falls to me:

    No, Marxism-Leninism was anti-religion. In traditional Marxist though, religion is a classic example of "ideology" - beliefs about the world which legitimize power structures by obscuring actual social relations. The Soviet Union and the Marxists of the first half of the twentieth century were violently anti-religious because religion was seen as a vestige of bourgeois society.

    The USSR organized childrens' atheist clubs and engaged in anti-religious propaganda. They tore down the largest church in Russia to build their monumental "Palace of the Soviets", and shot quite a few resisting Orthodox clergy.

    Calling socialism a religion in that sense is a distortion
    Last edited by Emperor_Billy_Bob, Jul 3, 2013
  6. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Well, from Wikipedia.....
    Georges Clemenceau (1841–1929): Prime minister of France 1906–1909 and 1917–1920
    Giorgio Napolitano (1925–): Italian politician, 11th President of Italy
    Sandro Pertini (1896-1990): Italian politician, 7th President of Italy
    Giuseppe Saragat (1898-1988): Italian politician, 5th President of Italy
    Aleksander Kwaśniewski (1954–): Former President of Poland (1995–2005)
    Clement Attlee 1st Earl Attlee, KG, OM, CH, PC (1883–1967): Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1945 to 1951, under whose government the National Health Service and Welfare State were established
    James Callaghan KG, PC (1912–2005): British politician, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1976 to 1979
    Nick Clegg (1967–): current Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
    Olof Palme (1927–1986): Swedish politician. He was a two-term Prime Minister of Sweden, heading a Privy Council Government from 1969 to 1976
    Jens Stoltenberg (1959–): Prime Minister of Norway (2000–2001, 2005–)
    Culbert Olson (1876–1962), American politician and Governor of California from 1939 to 1943
    Golda Meir (1898–1978): Israeli politician who became the fourth Prime Minister of Israel

    Not everyone, but hey, atheists running things. And many of those places still exist, even!
    Lord Vivec likes this.
  7. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    He called it a 'pseudo-religion', though.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jul 3, 2013
  8. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    Clumsily worded on purpose, like when we would explain physics to children back in Physics Club Outreach. It's to not confuse them with nuance.
    Ender_Sai and Emperor_Billy_Bob like this.
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    Examples of singular (in their governments) exceptions, vs. the Communist policy of "must be atheist to be in government. Period." Big difference.
  10. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    You just pulled a reverse No True Scotsman.
    Lord Vivec and Lowbacca_1977 like this.
  11. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    So, any evidence presented to you is an "exception?"
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  12. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Absolutely it was ideology but it with great thought that Marx saw it as a useful ideology. I don't want to say it was pro-religion; saying anti- means actively opposed and Marx himself, either despite or perhaps because of, his Jewish upbrinigng was not advocating an out and out assault on the Church.

    You forget, or at least fail to acknowledge, that Marxism was absolutely filtered and reinvented through the lenses or Leninism and Stalinism - so looking to the USSR as an example of socialism would be like looking at Christians as examples of lolChrist's teachings.
  13. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    Well, since 'nuance' is in play here. Is there no difference in those two systems of government, where atheism/non-confessional were required for employment in government in Communist countries, but not a requirement in non-communist ones?
  14. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    What was presented was comparing apples with oranges , ie not 'evidence' of atheists to-the-exclusion-of-everyone-else running the state.
  15. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    So then you would agree, TOYSRUS, that the main difference between Lenin, Stalin, and co. all the other atheists, are Marxism-Leninism, and that maybe, the atrocities committed by Stalin and Lenin and all should reflect poorly on Marxism-Leninism, and not atheism?
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  16. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    So, what you're really asking is "Are there examples of totalitarian governments that are not totalitarian"? Or am I missing the open and tolerant nations that require you to be a part of a specific religion to be involved in the government, but then are widely tolerant. (Oh, say, exactly what Saudi Arabia isn't)
  17. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    (Hey Vivec.

    As him about China's 5 official Churches.)
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  18. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    I'd be skeptical of just how successful the USSR was in actually suppressing religion. I would bet, given how insanely socially conservative Russia is, and how powerful the Church there is, that as long as people weren't obnoxious about it, they could go on being Orthodox Christians. So, I doubt all Communists were atheists.

    On the flip side, it is still a de facto requirement to be Christian to assume any elected office in the US. Even Obama had to start pretending to be Christian once he decided he wanted to go national.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  19. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    "But Marxism itself was never really tried! So it therefore never failed! It might work this time! We swear!!!"
  20. Emperor_Billy_Bob Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2000
    star 7
    Kronstadt, man. Just Kronstadt.

    You must understand that Lenin was a controversial mf at the time the revolution happened.
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  21. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    I'm aware of what Saudi Arabia isn't. Sunni Islam only. No others need apply.
  22. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    "Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it."

    Marxism was tried, but it's wildly impractical. Leninism gives it some weight as an analytical model of first and third world interactions, but I feel you really shouldn't comment on Marxism until you actually understand what it is (rather than what it isn't).
  23. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    So you have no examples of a country that effectively dictates religion, yet is, at the same time, tolerant of other religions? Is it coincidence that scenario never manifested itself?
    Last edited by Lowbacca_1977, Jul 3, 2013
  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Buddhist, Taoist, Islam, Catholic, etc.?

    Confucian doesn't count does it?

    But China's an exception (in answer to Lowbacca1977). I doubt North Korea next door has "offical Churches". Yes, Kim's great-grand parents were Protestant missionaries, I hear. Anyone know if Mongolia in it's Communist days 'protected' or sanctioned Lamaistic Buddhism?
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jul 3, 2013
  25. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Ender is referring to these: Buddhist Association of China, Chinese Taoist Association, Islamic Association of China, Three-Self Patriotic Movement and Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. Those 5 churches are all officially sanctioned by the Chinese Government.
    Ender_Sai likes this.
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