JCC God Exists.

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, Jun 3, 2013.

?

God Exists.

yes 51 vote(s) 40.5%
no 40 vote(s) 31.7%
nnnnnNNNNOOOOOOOOO!!!! 22 vote(s) 17.5%
dunno 35 vote(s) 27.8%
no curr 5 vote(s) 4.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. hear+soul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 6
    agreed.
    agreed.
    I'm not sure that those statements add up to this one.

    Well, let me agree with you, first. Even a Christian who says they have all the answers and doesn't then defer to God is probably one to be skeptical of. We don't even know God's exact plan for our own lives, even daily, let alone someone else's.And there's even disagreement within the church about the origin of the universe and life (is Genesis 1 literal? But I maintain the how of creation does not determine the who, which I'm borrowing from someone. :p ) and the nature of the Holy Spirit, so I, ultimately, agree with your initial point at face value.

    However, understanding the nature of these questions is different from being omniscient, or knowing all the answers. And it's not unreasonable for someone to discern a good deal about the nature of life, even from a day-to-day observance of reality. We can observe that love conquers hate, for instance, within our personal relationships. Or, a better example, that forgiveness brings healing. Between our conscience and feelings, and then observing the world around us, I think we can figure out a lot. Like how we're stuck on this planet with tons of other people, and that it seems inescapable that interaction is part of our purpose.

    You see what I'm saying? You can reason a lot of it out, and, accordingly, I think man, collectively, has come to a general consensus of what life is about. Freedom comes to mind.

    But, if there is a God, then it's just a matter of him revealing the answers, if he so chooses, however he feels is right. So, unless you are an atheist, it is not inconceivable that someone could know a great deal about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, if God reveals it.
    I'm not sure agrarian quite fits, in the manner I think you mean... and, once again, I don't believe Christ wants us to fight for one style of economics over another, but that said, no.

    Rich giving to poor is absolutely wonderful, but it doesn't work well forced, imo. Jesus also says you reap what you sow. So, it's not quite so simple.

    Could you be more specific? Perhaps I have missed your point.

    @Commander Krix I like it, though I think there is at least some evidence on both sides. Maybe I need it explained to me..
    Last edited by hear+soul, Jun 4, 2013
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    OK - Jesus is arguably in favour of wealth redistribution and shows an opposition which, in the modern context, could be considered hostile to capitalism.

    So he's therefore a nicer Che Guevara.
    anakinfansince1983 and V-2 like this.
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    @hear+soul

    And my answer to that would be that neither the existence or the lack of existence of a God can be seen as a given.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 4, 2013
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  4. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    As I understand it, this Jesus chap said you should leave your family, your job, drop out from society altogether and let God provide for you.
  5. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5
    This thread has gone exactly how I thought it would.
  6. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Recall the sermon on the mount: "Consider the lilly - it turns on, tunes in, and drops out."
    Lowbacca_1977 and V-2 like this.
  7. hear+soul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 6
    Yeah (er-no on the che part but :p ), so I would say it's great and pretty universally accepted that giving to people that are in need when you have an excess is a good thing. Celebrities, businesses, and all kind of people are praised for giving to charities and helping others in a variety of ways. It is wonderful to give to others when it's your choice. Jesus was not about government. I, as a Christian, love that our country has, more or less (oftentimes less or much less), stood for Christian values and been a nation under God, but that is fleeting. Christ preached a kingdom, actually, and He is King. But it's a kingdom that exists in the midst of this world, and yet, is above it. It doesn't conflict with government. Government is, unfortunately, necessary on earth, I would say.

    Anyway, I'm getting away from your question. I'm all but non-political, at this point. Both sides have positives and negatives, and both sides are full of blindness and deafness to the truth, to one another, and to the people. I think some, surely, are doing their best and what is right... but politics is mostly a distraction, to me. Jesus said pay taxes. Do your duty. Render unto Caesar. Render unto God the things that are God's... and remember, God kind of owns everything, so that would be my life, should I so choose.

    And, once again, reap what you sow... to label Jesus a socialist is trying to contain him or make him fit in a nice, neat category, but he doesn't.

    Well, I believe it is plain to all, and written on our hearts, but, at the same time, there is doubt. There is reason to doubt. And no one goes through life without doubt, so I will agree. And it also cannot be 100% proven either way, so I also concede that, though I do think it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
  8. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    So is this the new you? I mean, is this how interacting with you is going to be now? You're just going to preach your gospel to us?

    How?
    Last edited by harpuah, Jun 4, 2013
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  9. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I'm an agnostic, but Jesus is a guru I can get behind. Unlike that obtuse, bloated Buddha, JC was out there on the front lines, feeding the poor, saving prostitutes, enraging religious conservatives, battling money lenders, and getting crucified by the Roman Empire. A life well-lived, I say.

    Heck, if JC were alive today, he'd be preaching in the slums, protesting in front of Goldman Sachs, and appearing on the FBI watch list.
    V-2 and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  10. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Budai isn't Buddha, bro.
    Ender_Sai likes this.
  11. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    When you specifically ask him questions about his faith, he will probably respond in kind.

    For instance, when you invite him to expound the reasons for his confidence about being correct. Why is this dynamic surprising you so much?
    hear+soul likes this.
  12. hear+soul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 6
    Actually, the wording was much stronger than that.

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple." - Luke 14:26-27

    But

    "everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first." -Matthew 19:29-30

    It's difficult, though. But, it's like the story of the rich man, told just above this Matthew passage. Jesus's point is that what you lay down is your very life. He pointed out that, even when you follow all the commandments, if you're not willing to give up everything, if you don't have love in your heart, you can't follow. He says "if you love me, then you will obey my commandments."

    To hate is to reject. Do you reject the world for Jesus, who was rejected and died for you? You won't necessarily (notice his wording in Matthew, anyone who has left this or that or this or that, not all at once, necessarily, but perhaps) have to give all those things up actually, but in your heart, you must let go of them, because you will be called to make some of those decisions, and you will face troubles, but you will have peace, and take heart, for He has overcome the world.

    But God is not against prosperity. He uses it. Someone who has much can give much. "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much." - Luke 16:10 So, we know God does allow some people to have much. But, realistically, if God is real, everything you have is from him.

    But Jesus was radical. There are no two ways about it.

    Let's keep it in perspective, however. Remember,

    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
    Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” -Matthew 22:36-40

    So, that is how I know the nature of the word hate, above, because of his teaching about what is most important.
  13. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    Thanks, Wocky, but I didn't ask you the question.
  14. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Stupidity exists; I'm living proof.
    hear+soul likes this.
  15. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Don't sweat it, common misconception. :p
  16. hear+soul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 6
    Thank you, Wocky, for your support. It is greatly appreciated.
    This is going to be coming at you from a book I read called I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. Here we go:

    1. Truth about reality is knowable.
    2. The opposite of true is false.
    3. It is true that the theistic God exists. This is evidenced by the:
    a. Beginning of the universe (Cosmological Argument)
    b. Design of the universe (Teleological Argument/ Anthropic Principle)
    d. Moral Law (Moral Argument)

    Where would you like me to start?

    [edit: I may retire soon (it's getting pretty late here: 12:10 AM), but I will pick it up again tomorrow for some time.]

    edit2: and no, I don't imagine I will talk about God if it is not warranted. In the NBA thread, for instance. Maybe in a social thread, because it is central to who I am, but generally not unless it comes up.
    Last edited by hear+soul, Jun 4, 2013
  17. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    darth autobot you're making me want to throw up

    EDIT: You really don't want to bring up cosmology here. I'll give you one chance to retract.
    Last edited by Lord Vivec, Jun 4, 2013
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  18. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    God exists because I exist and I am awesomely godly.
  19. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    This is why I am bowing out. I suggest you all do the same. RIGHT NOW.
    V-2 likes this.
  20. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I dunno, I must register an "11" on the schmuck-o-meter. Looks like it's time to stop mocking people for imagining Jesus as a blue-eyed Swede.
  21. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    It is hardly an unassailable, empirical truth that "the theistic God exists"; I am of the inclination that He does, but that's just an inclination.

    Here's where your argument falls apart:

    What does the fact that the beginning of the universe does, indeed, beg for some kind of explanation have anything to do with a compendium of disparate Jewish oral traditions transcribed and assembled over thousands of years? Now, I am of the opinion of that this compendium happens to be the most magisterial mosaic of literature ever assembled, but there's absolutely no nexus between its incredible literary power and whether it represents cosmological and empirical truth about the origins of the universe.
    Bob Octa, V-2 and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  22. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8

    Good call... I really do not want to do this. Best to back away slowly and read another thread.
  23. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    The hell you guys, Grod exists and I have proof:

    [IMG]
    Adam of Nuchtern and Juliet316 like this.
  24. hear+soul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 6
    @Lord Vivec no, I won't. So, go ahead. I'm not an expert, but I have access to expert analysis and my own ability to reason, so we'll see where it goes. It will be interesting and engaging, at least.

    Well, that's just the first part of the argument. That's God alone, which is what we're talking about. The rest, to what you're saying:

    4. If God exists, Miracles are possible.
    5. Miracles can be used to confirm a message from God (i.e., as acts of God to confirm a word from God).
    6. The New Testament is historically reliable. This is evidenced by:
    a. Early Testimony
    b. Eyewitness Testimony
    c. Uninvented (authentic) testimony
    d. Eyewitnesses who were not deceived
    7. The New Testament says Jesus claimed to be God.
    8. Jesus' claim to be God was miraculously confirmed by:
    a. His fulfillment of many prophecies about himself;
    b. His sinless life and miraculous deeds;
    c. His prediction and accomplishment of his resurrection.
    9. Therefore, Jesus is God.
    10. Whatever Jesus (who is God) teaches is true.
    11. Jesus taught that the Bible is the Word of God.
    12. Therefore, it is true that the Bible is the Word of God (and anything opposed to it is false).

    So, there's your logical walk from truth to the God of the Jews. But it's an argument that builds on itself. So, there's my testimony, but of course many people are saying many things, so, then there is this. I'd be happy to do my best to unpack it or discuss/debate any point with anyone.

    I thought you were gone, already! Have you still not thought of what you'd like me to concede, then?

    Then why did you ask?

    I know not all atheists are like this, but it, in my personal experience, it seems the ones I have come across in my life are unwilling to discuss or debate much further than the surface. It's like you are scared of going further, or unwilling to do the work, but, I suppose, if you do not believe in God, there is no reason to try and convince, or even discuss it with me. This is all of no consequence, anyway. The universe will eventually die out and there will be nothing. What we say here will not change that, or mean anything, then.
    Last edited by hear+soul, Jun 4, 2013
  25. Diggy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2013
    star 5
    Nope. No signs. It's quite possible...sit down for this...that the deity you're currently deciding to believe in doesn't exist.

    If you are who you say you are, I can only assume you're banging this drm because you've found some top class Christian *****.
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