Good Choice of Words

I dont see it that way at all.

The Jedi had to make a tough choice at the end of ROTS and they had to ensure that the kids would go somewhere safe. Yes, they would form attachments, but it was the only course of action they could take. At least the kids would be safe. Then, when the time came, they would train one of them - teaching them how to let go. No one said it would be easy, but they had learned from what happened with Anakin and be able to do a "better" job with Luke. Attachments for Jedi are a danerous thing. The Jedi dont say you cant love people, in fact they say that Jedi should love everyone. They are just saying they cant let themselves become attached to people in the sense that they are taking something from the relationship - they want and desire something from it. That essentially is greed. This is different from living in symbiance (symbiotic relationshsip) as that is about living in harmony and being selfless.

Luke did form attachments due to his upbringing. But there wasnt a way around it. His safety was paramount. Training him later to let go was the plan. And as for Luke, his attachments weren't as strong as Anakins were and he was a stronger person IMO.

Here are some Lucas quotes that may help:

 

Returning to the original intent of this thread:

MACE: The Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition.

PALPATINE: I am the Senate!

(Mace attempts to "take control" of "the Senate"; Anakin arrives and helps Palpatine kill Mace)

PALPATINE: Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace.

The Jedi Council secured peace -- from a certain point of view.

 

Here's another cool Palpatine-esque one from TPM:

PADME: I pray you will bring sanity and compassion back to the Senate.

Flash forward to ROTS: Palpatine/Sidious is flinging the Senate to pieces like a madman.

 

"Coruscant. The entire planet is one big city...And look over there. Senator Palpatine is waiting for us"

That's too creepy. All he does is wait. One of the more chilling lines in retrospect...

 

I love all the Palpatine ones.

You're absolutely right. Palpatine doesn't go to people; they come to him. The one exception to this is when he races to Mustafar and rescues Anakin. Something he didn't plan on, perhaps?

SHMI: He deserves better than a slave's life.

But Anakin remains a slave until the final moments of the saga.

DOOKU: It may be difficult to secure your release...

Dooku also found it difficult to secure his own release (from the Dark Side). He was betrayed by Sidious and killed by Anakin.

CLONE TROOPER: It's time for you to leave...
BAIL: And so it is.

Democracy itself was forced out of Coruscant / the Republic.

VADER: I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it further.

A Sith trait. Palpatine constantly alters the "deals" he makes in the PT. Anakin also alters his own deal ("Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her...").

 

Again, I disagree. The Sith do form attachments - thats why they are greedy. They form attachments to the power they have and the power certain people offer them. They, more than anyone, fear losing that which gives them power. As Lucas says, Vader lets go of his attachments when he saves his son. He lets go of everything he cared about as a Sith - his own power and the Emperor.

Sith have attachments. Its what makes them Sith in the first place. Greed. Fear of loss. Etc.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says(regarding the end of Anakin's story). "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

 

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

You guys DO realise what this topic's meant to be about, right?

There are tons of other threads to talk about the meaning / theme of attachment. They're all over the board.

C'mon, seriously. I bit my lip before and let you have your say. But I think it's getting a bit silly now. This is a thread for folks who want to talk about hidden subtexts within the dialogue.

 

Is it really that big a deal? We're having a perfectly reasonable discussion about Star Wars.

If I create a thread on something I'd expect it to go off in many different directions. That what this place is about. You discuss things. It leads into other forms of debate. Its half the fun. We're not stopping anyone from discussing what they want to discuss and we're not spamming.

And this conversation didnt come from no where. An issue about attachment was brought up within the thread (by yourself and MisterVader!) and myself and PMT99 went with that. It directly relates to the issue at hand in terms of character motivations etc.

You are not a mod, however much you want to be one Cryogenic. You are just being pedantic here and stirring things up again. Should the mods or darth wolvo have an issue I will leave the attachment issue. But I cant see why they would. Its a star wars topic.

 

The Sith are attached to their power, yes but they are NOT attached to people especially not each other nor those who serve them. The Sith don't care about who lives or dies as long as they get what they want and if that were the case, then Anakin would not care that his son is being fried by the Emperor's lighting but he does which shows that attachments aren't just about greed or the fear of loss, its about the "symbiote circle" that 2 people share together.

 

To answer your question: Yes.

Half the thread has been dominated by a discussion that you could easily have in a dozen other threads and more.

Oh, definitely. However: Like I said, I bit my lip before. Tangents naturally occur. But they shouldn't occur at the expense of the original intent / momentum of the thread. You were having this lengthy debate a page back, new posts got made on the dialogue, and now you've suddenly resumed and are having it again. That isn't what this thread is for.

I am reporting these personal statements to a mod. I simply requested that you stop and resume the discussion elsewhere. These remarks are not warranted.

 

As I was reading the thread, I found one, well with some creative editing anyway

can you find which one I am talking about?


let me help you

Sidious:"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

---

Also, since no one has said yet, even though it is not very subtle:

Obi-Wan: Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?
Anakin: Don't say that, master. You're the closest thing I have to a father.

 

cyro, Shaitan, I'm going to discuss this with Spike and see what he thinks needs to be done, but for the time being I am going to ask that you two completely ignore the other's posts. In your mind, in your world, the other's user account doesn't exist: no posts by it are thus being made and any post in part or whole made by a third person that addresses the other person cannot and does not, therefore, exist in your mind. While I know this is an usual request, I trust your abilities to adhere to it until further notice.

 

Great thread! I'm still working my way through it all so forgive me if what I bring up has been touched upon...

Getting back to the RoTS Palpatine line brought up earlier...

Palpatine: "I am the Senate!"

Fast forward a bit and he is destroying the Senate chambers from within...

Fast forward even more to AnH...

"I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the Council permanently."

Palpatine's self proclaimed reference to himself as "the Senate" (in a pivotal moment) speaks of his own eventual demise through greed, pride and overconfidence. Like most -- he is his own worst enemy.

 

Not in a "loving" way. But then attachment is never about unconditonal love. As Lucas says, vader "loves" Sidious, as in he is attached to him and the power he gets from that.

I think my explanation of the attachment issue with the quotes provided should suffice here. Attachment isnt about symbiance. Its has elements of greed which Jedi cannot align themselves with.

Vader saves Luke because he loves him unconditonally - not because he wants something out of it himself - which would mean he was attached.

 

I've noticed that one of the recurring motifs of the saga seems to be communications breakdown. Like when Padme says: "This war represents a failure to listen." Or Anakin not truly listening to Obi Wan. Or Palpatine, for that matter. He hears, but he doesn't perceive. Anakin and Padme's relationship also breaks down for the same reason: "Don't do this. Don't shut me out." We seem to have this seed planted early on in the saga -- in one of the first scenes, in fact:

"A communications breakdown can mean only one thing: Invasion!"

An invasion of mistrust, an invasion of negativity .... an invasion of the Dark Side.

 

Hmmm, the initial line, to me, spoke more to the Jedi's inventiveness and their ability to survive an almost impossible situation.

 

Is it greed when you want to help the people you love? Do greedy people want to sacrifice everything for their girlfriends-even their souls? I think not because they only care about themselves and will stop at nothing to get what they want. Attachment also has elements of nobility where you would give anything to help people and to love someone, you have to sacrifice everything for that person. Anakin tried to do that for Padme but he went about it the wrong way by trusting a Sith Lord instead of the Jedi and for that, he screwed himself and lost Padme in the process.

 

No - Anakin was trying to hold on to the things he loved because of his selfish desires. thats what attachments are in this case.

Anakin isnt trying to help Padme out of uncondtional love. He is trying to stop her from dying because of his own desires - ands that is greed.

And needed to learn to accept that there are "some things no one can fix", that "you can't stop the suns from setting". Sometimes, death is inevitable and as a Jedi you have to accept that and let go.

Furthermore, he also needed to realise that "the tighter you grip, the more you lose". By trying to stop Padme dying and holding on to his attachment he ended up being the cause of her death.

Seriously, attachments, in Star Wars atleast, are based on greed and are not very healthy.

 

Back on track. Hopefully this is relevant.

Grand Moff Tarkin: "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe."

A couple of ironies here, or perhaps a subtle joke on Tarkin's part, if he knew of the Jedi tradition of having funeral pyres. Then of course there's the fact that Vader went out of the universe in a fire.

Bit of a stretch, but interesting when you think about it, especially in the context of the following line.

"You my friend are all that's left of their religion."

 

"Better dead here than dead in the core."



It works on too many levels.

 

Niiiiice catch man... Cheers

 

Personally, although I see how these dialogue connections are being made, I don't think all were intended. I think, if we look hard enough, we could connect just about everything up! Anywho, one that always cracks me up and which was quite clearly intentional on both the writers part and Palpatine was that used in ROTS when Sidious spoke to Viceroy Gunray:

"When my new apprentice, Darth Vader, arrives, he will take care of you".



PWND!

 

Yeah, that one's good. In the novel Vader adds lots of sarcastic jabs as he wipes out the Seperatists, which go along with that line. Given the tone of that part of the movie, though, it's perhaps best that they left that out.

 

Ah, I had fogotten about those lines in the novel. I remember during the spoiler game when extracts from the novel came out and a lot of us thought they were parts of the script - I remember thinking at the time how cool those lines were and how sinister it made Anakin/Vader. But I think you're right, it just went too far and would have ruined the scene/s. I think this type of comic relief has been misused in Star Wars before, espeically the PT in scenes which "could" have been much more emotional. For example, in the Geonosis arena where a lot of Jedi are being killed, we see Anakin and Padme have a light hearted exchange referring back to that "aggressive negotiations" comment and then those horrible puns by Threepio. It really spoiled the drama of the scene for me. Having Anakin use puns when chopping down the Separatists would probably hve had the same effect and furthermor, gone against his character at the time who was still very much conflicted in what he was doing.