Good news everyone!

"And let's be honest. Do you think the film festival is offering these films for the sake of film history... or to sell tickets? "

The same could be said for the SE's. I guess everyone's just a greedy little bastard, right? ?

"I'll admit that I love as much as anyone the old sequences, but I do not regard there replacement as a crime against my childhood or as some evil act.

The "replacement" wouldn't be such a problem if he also made the original available.

"And my final point: Is there even a original print of Star Wars available for use? "

Yes, and Lucas won't let that be publicly viewed either. Nice, huh?

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Bah. Some people will always see him as Evil Bastard Luca$ either which way.

 

Like it's different with anyone else?

A public figure having supporters as well as detractors - what a bizarre notion!?!

 

AdamB:

I've made movies with bits in them that I'm ashamed of.

Heck, I even made a couple of shorts in the past two years that I will NEVER release, EVER, because I think they're awful.

And my very first movie was a Star Wars fan film. It is no longer available. And I have had e-mails, private messages and even PUBLIC APPEALS made to me to re-release my ancient and crappy fan film for historical value.
I'm not kidding. Apparently people want to see it.
But I do not like that film any more. I am simply not as proud of it as I used to be, and I don't want people to see it any more, no matter how loudly they beg.


And thus I know what it feels like to be George Lucas and to not want this sort of thing to get out.

That's a very good example I didn't think about. However, I think GL's case is different because the original versions did SO many things. (not to take away from your personal accomplishments) It pioneered the very FX we enjoy today, it won a ton of awards, it became the highest grossing film period (not sure about inflation). It truly was a film like no other. If it were some rough, small, embarassing film shown to a few friends and family, I could definitely understand why you wouldn't want to show it, but Lucas seems to be sweeping a 700-lb rhino under the rug here. But why is he trying to hide it? I think he should realize, that, like the other 9 honorable films chosen, many of them have the creakiest effects and flaws (scratches and missing frames), but they will always be considered important. Audiences do not mind it because they understand that those X-wings and matte lines were a product of their time.

And I still can't shake the feeling those men and women who contributed so much back in 1975-1977 to create Star Wars will NOT see an ounce of their blood, sweat, and tears up there on the big screen. If you and I were employees back then in 1977 working hard on Star Wars (imagine me with a big mustache), wouldn't that really p*ss you off to not see any of your work being celebrated in an event meant to celebrate your work?

rpeugh, just keep on laughing you.

 

Like it's different with anyone else?

A public figure having supporters as well as detractors - what a bizarre notion!?!


MeBe, did I express any kind of surprise or shock whatsoever in my post?
Nope, so I wasn't saying that. I have no problem accepting that fact. Don't get defensive.

EDIT - Okay, maybe that's a bit harsh. But I wasn't surprised about the complaints or begruding someone's right to do so. I was just highlighting good ol' cliche #725 - "Damned if you do..."

 

"I was just highlighting good ol' cliche #725 - "Damned if you do..."

I know. I just found it frustrating. Sorry.

 

This story has finally hit the main page and it indicated that, according to Lucasfilm, the SEs are it as far as the OT goes. So the revisionist doctrine is in full effect it seems.

 

About the main page story...where does it say in the AICN "story" that there is no OE in existence?

And I must say that all of the responses are incredibly funny. Those guys are hilarious.

Cometgreen

 

The way I see it, if you care enough about the original non-special editions, then you probably already own them on laserdisc, or you could get hold of copies of the LDs. All those VHS and LD copies of the original versions haven't suddenly ceased to exist.

I'll admit that some of the changes for the special editions were a bit silly, but the films haven't been 'ruined' and Lucas hasn't 'raped' your childhoods.

 

I suppose I should clarify...

I don't feel like my childhood has been raped. I feel more like my own kids are going to miss out on something that I thoroughly enjoyed when I was a kid.

Have any of you ever tried to go back to the playground where you played as a kid? Remember when you used to laugh and run around and jump off the swings?

But now those swings have been replaced with a nice new monstrosity of a playground hybrid beast, complete with tire bridge and four slides. Sure there's still something to play on, but it's just not the same.

If there were still just swings, you could still just swing. But since everyone knows that more is better, nobody will care that you prefer the simple act of swinging to, say, climbing and crossing the tire bridge in order to just get to the swings.

Enough of my rambling... Back to the point at hand.

Will my VHS copies of the original Star Wars be in any condition to watch ten years from now? Don't know. Even if I copy them and just watch the copies, what happens if something unforeseen happens to destroy my original copies? I guess I'll have to get price-raped on Ebay.

I too think that Lucas is exhibiting a double standard here.

"Preserve all these older movies, so that their quaint inadequacies can be admired, but don't preserve these because they've got my name on them."

 

Rebel Scumb

If i draw a mustache on the mona lisa, its not really the mona lisa anymore is it?

What about if I give her bigger boobs?

Velazquez went back to his 'Las Meninas' to put the Santiago cross on his chest because he joined the Santiago Order 20 years later. I think the picture is still 'Las Meninas', isn't it?

Or the story everybody knows about 'The Hobbit' and how he changed the story about how Bilbo got the ring from Gollum. And I'm sure somebody with more knowledge than me in all kind of arts could provide more examples.

It's not like GL was the first one in revisiting and altering his previous job.

 

>>>>Well to me he looks like the 'bad guy' on this issue for quite sometime - he talks about the importance of film preservation and film history etc. and he talks about putting out his films in the best theaters and best possible formats - and yet 5+ years after the advent of DVDs we're still waiting for the OT on DVD.

Apart from the fact that DVD isn't the "best possible format" for a FILM, maybe nobody told him he was working to a deadline?

>>>>And my final point: Is there even a original print of Star Wars available for use?

Yes, there [i[definitely[/i] is. And what's more, it's a better quality print than any collector owns. Even better than George Lucas' own technicolour print.

See, there's the one that was made at great expense as a part of (and according to some sources, the original reason for) the Special Edition project, where the original, 1977 print (ie. the one without "Episode IV", with Beru's original voice, without certain scenes that were swapped around, without the additional dialogue that was added... many people forget that there was a few changes made to the film before Greedo shot first...) was cleaned and restored.

Why was it restored?

Because due to a problem with the original film stock, the original prints of the film had deteriorated so badly that if they wasn't restored then, it would soon reach a point where it would never be able to be shown again. Note that these were the original 1977 prints, which had been kept in an archive at optimum temperature, humidity etc.

Of course, there was a later "original" version of the film which had only just been remastered and released on laserdisc.


In the meantime, Star Wars fans are both advertising (for free) and drumming up an enormous demand for a product which only 5 years ago, everybody already owned.

The only conclusion I can make for certain is that whoever is marketing director at Lucasfilm is nothing short of a genius.

 

*buys a beer for MeBeJedi*

Sorry, man. Uhh...you're not under drinking age, are you?

 

Scott-
Apart from the fact that DVD isn't the "best possible format" for a FILM, maybe nobody told him he was working to a deadline?

Well it's a hell of a lot better than VHS!

In the meantime, Star Wars fans are both advertising (for free) and drumming up an enormous demand for a product which only 5 years ago, everybody already owned.

Everybody owned a copy of the O-OT on DVD 5 years ago ?

g

 

Apart from the fact that DVD isn't the "best possible format" for a FILM, maybe nobody told him he was working to a deadline?

Currently, for the mainstream public, it is the best possible format.

 

Currently, for the mainstream public, it is the best possible format.

What? You mean I'm the only guy who has a private screening theater in his dorm room?




/ okay it's just my computer and I turn all my lights off


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

OK, well Leonardo aside then, let's use Lucas as an artist on general principal here.

The King and an artist make a deal, a contract if you will. This artist will paint a painting and ready or not, it has to be released as scheduled.
The painter starts painting with the kingdom's standard paint set. It's not enough, so he mixes colors to get the ones he needs. However, there's still not enough colors as he'd like.
The King comes by and demands that the painting be put on display to the public.
'But, it's not finished!'
The King makes him anyway. Although unfinished, the public doesn't know this and adores it anyway, despite the fact that in numerous interviews the artist had insisted that there weren't enough colors.
Years later, more paint comes to the kingdom. The artist's work has been stored in a room somewhere so he asks that the king allow him to finish his work and re-release it.
What does the King care? He already made money the first time. So the artist dusts off the painting, adds more color, and maybe a tree or two to the background although the main subject of the painting is left very much intact. It's still a painting of two knights fighting as opposed to two clowns hugging for example.
He shows the public what he has done thus far and the villagers are mad.
'Why, sir, have you ruined your painting? Where are the knights?'
'The knights, good people, are still there.'
'Yet it is a different painting is it not?'
'No, it is the same painting with more color and an extra tree or two.'
'But, sir, what right have you to change our painting?'
'Your painting? Was it not I who painted it? Was it not I who had to release what he had accomplished at the time, no matter that it was unfinished?'
'Aye, sir. But the original taught us all how to mix colors.'
'And aren't there still sections of this painting that show that? For I did not change it all.'
'But, sir! We loved the first.'
'I cannot help that. For it is still my painting. To love something, does not make it yours.'
Sadly, that night the angry villagers made plans to burn down the artist's house which they claimed was theirs since it was their money that paid for it. Nevermind the fact that the villagers willingly gave the artist their money, thus making it his money when they relenquished ownership of it to him.

I hope that analogy works a lil better.

 

Good point, Droid.

I personally don't begrudge Lucas the right to change his creation. It is his, after all. My only complaint is that he should give us the right to choose which version of the art we likes. This isn't a painting, where only one version can exist. In film we have the luxury of multiple versions. I like the SE's, I think the good outweigh the bad, and what alot of people say ruin the films to me have no real effect one way or another. But I also want to have the O-OT available for those who disagree with me. I'd personally even be willing to pay extra for the SE DVD's when they come out if the O-OT would be available on them, and I probably wouldn't even watch them that much.

I think the real problem with how Lucas has decided to handle this is that this is a piece of art that is really unprecedented. Never before has a series of movies captured imaginations the way SW has. Star Trek comes close, but it can't touch the accessibility and, I'll say it, quality, of SW. There are so many people who have such a huge emotional stake in the saga that he honestly is only a majority shareholder, not the sole owner. We care about Luke Skywalker at least as much as he does. As such, there is really no reason to try and sweep the old version under the rug. Many people love it. It's like colorizing old films. I detest that, but some people doubtlessly love it. But the point is, both versions are allowed to exist unless one doesn't sell worth squat. The O-OT does not fall into this category, as obviously people would buy it.

I just think the main reason we get so testy regarding the O-OT is because not releasing it makes no sense. The majority of O-OT advocates don't want to see all prints of the SE burned; we're not begrudging Lucas his artistic vision. We just would like to see his "rough cut" out and about because some people prefer it. It makes no business sense, because people would obviously buy it. It can easily be interpreted as Lucas simply disregarding the fans wholesale for his own desires, and that rubs the wrong way a great number of people who have invested not a small amount of time and money into SW. That's the main reason that these debates sometimes turn ugly.

Anyway, there's my two cents.

 

Sadly, that night the angry villagers made plans to burn down the artist's house which they claimed was theirs since it was their money that paid for it. Nevermind the fact that the villagers willingly gave the artist their money, thus making it his money when they relenquished ownership of it to him.

Hmm, Wascally Droid, so you're saying we should grab our torches and pitchforks and go to Skywalker Ranch? I like your thinking!

Seriously though, many of us aren't saying an artist should never change his work. At the same time, just because something is changed doesn't mean its better. (imo a lot of Special Edition changes go far beyond a "tree or two". They pollute what I thought was great to begin with. If ANH was near-perfect, I now think it's less perfect)

And what we're really discussing is why George won't show the original version in an event meant to celebrate that particular version. The people at that theater even went out of their way to procure a copy of the O-OT but were denied even that. Now, think of the huge number of people back in 1976 who worked so hard on those FX shots for ANH. And not just any FX shots, but moments that would inspire and influence a world. Now, none of that work will be shown. Instead, it's the work of CG artists.

Another analogy -- imagine if Tim, Susy, and Joe worked on a gorgeous mural for a high school library, say, 10 years ago. It took months of love, planning and patience, but the results were worth the hard work. People loved it. It's praised and remembered. The principal even says it will be one of the school's proud symbols. Now skip ahead 10 years, and Tim, Susy, and Joe go back for their ten-year high school reunion. Imagine their surprise to see that their huge mural, meant to capture the feeling of their times, was painted over.

That sucks.

 

I think people should wait until the DVDs come out before they get so upset. Is there even any word of Lucasfilm working on the OT DVDs yet? I'm confident that Lucasfilm will release both versions (though I would prefer an Ultimate Edition, where he combines the goodness of the OEs with the goodness of the SEs), even if it gets down to Coleman or somebody bitchslapping Lucas and forcing him to spend a few bucks to transfer the OE to DVD.

If Lucas is the businessman so many people like to paint him as, then we'll probably be seeing ten more versions of the OT in the future. I mean really, I'm sure Luca$ is planning an Original Edition, Special Edition, Ultimate Edition, Ultimate Edition with Commentary, Ultimate Edition Gift Pack, 35-years Edition, etc.

EDIT: "The people at that theater even went out of their way to procure a copy of the O-OT but were denied even that."

Woah woah woah. Went out of their way? That doesn't make any sense. It's their job to get a copy of the films for presentation. How is doing that job "going out of their way"? It's not a big deal, but it seems like you're portraying them as a victim, when it's their own damn fault for advertising a product they didn't even have.

Cometgreen, still laughing at some people's reactions to this issue

 

even if it gets down to Coleman or somebody bitchslapping Lucas and forcing him to spend a few bucks to transfer the OE to DVD.

I would pay good money to see that.

Actually, this recent news doesn't give the impression the O-OT will ever come out on DVD. I think this recent news makes the situation much worse.

 

Cometgreen: Woah woah woah. Went out of their way? That doesn't make any sense. It's their job to get a copy of the films for presentation. How is doing that job "going out of their way"? It's not a big deal, but it seems like you're portraying them as a victim, when it's their own damn fault for advertising a product they didn't even have.

They said so in their own email that they "went out of their way." They wanted the original version to be shown alongside Metropolis and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, not the Special Editions. If it matters to them, I would say that they "went out of their way" too. And I might as well say it's Lucas' fault for being so "stubborn" in these matters, but that's just me.

And how do we know they advertised something they didn't have? Maybe Lucasfilm did intially promise it to them but changed their mind?

 

Well their emails seem to suggest that they went to Lucasfilm for a copy, but Lucasfilm only allowed the SE to be shown. If Lucasfilm promised them the OE then backed out, I'm sure the Festival would tell us.

As for them going out of their way to get the OE instead of the SE: well, I agree with what's been said before. ANH is a 70's film, ANH SE is a 90's film. So I think it would be their job to get the 70's copy in the first place. I see what you mean, but I wouldn't really define it as going out of their way.

"Actually, this recent news doesn't give the impression the O-OT will ever come out on DVD. I think this recent news makes the situation much worse."

It also doesn't give the impression that the OE will never come out on DVD either. You have to remember that GL is just now getting into editing of EpIII, so I doubt he even knows about this news (yet). The Lucasfilm PR, I would think, is only allowed to discuss the SEs for now.

I guess we just wait and see. But I don't think we should get so emotional just yet.

Cometgreen

 

"Well their emails seem to suggest that they went to Lucasfilm for a copy, but Lucasfilm only allowed the SE to be shown. If Lucasfilm promised them the OE then backed out, I'm sure the Festival would tell us. "

It's funny. People keep forgetting that this has happened before, with a festival that had a personal copy of the film to show. The problem isn't that the festival "didn't go through proper procedures" to show the O-OT, but that there are no procedures at all to show the O-OT. It isn't allowed in any way, shape, or form!

There's a big difference there, folks.

 

JW00
, first off, I can only assume (or pray?) you got lucky with those names as they're the names of three close friends of mine, but I digress

Second, not every single shot was changed anyway, so a lot of lil Tim, Susy, and Joe's work is still there. The opening Star Destroyer, escape pod, entire TIE Fighter/MF chase, the SD's chasing the MF from Tatooine, the entire trench run (which I thought could use some hlp as it's inconsistent with Vader's team's position), most of the Cantina creatures, every model and design and so forth.
Plus, if you're going with the whole 'think of how much work they put in!' route, then you should be thrilled that the Jabba scene was put back in (think of all those hard-working extras). And that's just ANH!
In ESB, just about every scene was left alone except for Cloud City. Even then, it was merely enhanced, not replaced.
Same with RotJ minus the new band. Then only other big change I can think of is the ending, and they only took out one or two of the original fireworks shots. They even added in more shots to the Ewok festival that the heros themselves were a part of. So it's not like Lucas just took their project and chucked it out a window.

However, your Tim, Susy, and Joe analogy is also a bad one. It wasn't they're project. They were hired by the visual/audio club nerd to make something for his film. They got payed for it. People originally even saw their work. I don't think it's poor them at all. Lucas isn't obligated in any way shape or form to keep any of their work at all... yet... he did keep quite a lot of it. I think Tim, Susy, and Joe would feel pretty damn honored that the nerd thought their original work was good enough to go against the heavy hitters even twenty years later if ya ask me

For the record, I wouldn't mind the O-OT on DVD, but I doubt I personally would ever watch it, except for nostalgic purpouses. Even then, I still have them on the pre-THX enhanced tapes for a truly nostalgic feel