"Good relations with the Wookies I have"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, May 17, 2011.

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  1. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    What is the general consensus on this scene? The novel states that Yoda and the Council had already decided before the meeting that Yoda would go, and were keeping Anakin out of the loop. The discussion is just for his benefit in this interpretaion. However, the movie by itself never seems to imply it IMO. What is your reading of the scene? I personally go with the novel, and think the Jedi are just pretending to include Anakin on this ocassion. It's not the only time in the film... "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi" comes only after Anakin leaves the room.
  2. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    The pretense in front of Anakin was for the Chancellor's "benefit," I believe, in the novel as well. It's the information they wanted to get thru Palpatine to whoever the Sith in the Chancellor's office was - draw the Sith into the open while the Chosen One was on planet while the Jedi most likely to "sense the Sith" (Yoda) was away.

    I think this could have been much more clear in the movie - and should have been. I even think Obi-Wan's lines to Anakin about how they suspected someone should have made it from novel to screen - it makes the Jedi look less stupid than some fans think they are for "sensing nothing."

    It really makes sense they have suspicions but no real leads and so hope to provoke action.
  3. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    Oh, that's right. Kind of backfired on them didn't it.

    I get the feeling that Lucas dumbed down the Jedi slightly because he didn't want the audience to think they were actually traitors.


    True, this does make sense. As Mace indicates, the fact that the Chancellor is the Sith, was their greatest fear.
  4. Darth Kruel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin could have handled the situation on Kshyykk just as well as Yoda. But Yoda had two things over Anakin. Namely, he was a senior member of the Jedi Council, and the Wookie community knew Yoda well. I don't think the Jedi Council were deliberately trying to keep Anakin out of the loop per say. Anakin was there as the Chancellor's representative. Nothing more. Nothing less. But it was Anakin who wanted to be more than that.
  5. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Oh, indeed. Anakin could have handled any mission (probably) as well as the ones who did handle them - he could have gone to Utapau and was mad because he wasn't sent. Sure the motivation is less in the movies (the Chancellor asked that I go) vs novel (it takes me away from the holocrons that might hold the answer to Padme's life), but he has this arrogant belief that no one can handle things as well as he.

    But he can't handle everything.

    And he's not privy to the reasoning - entice the Sith out of hiding while the Chosen One is on planet.

    If Anakin had not been so worried about his visions of Padme dying, it might well have worked out as the Council set up the situation - I mean, Anakin did run to the Council once he knew.

    But after that...:_|
  6. Darth Kruel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    Even as a Jedi Knight Anakin had maturity issues. If he was mature, he wouldn't have suggested to the Jedi Council what Palpatine request. He should have known that the Jedi Council would object to Palpatine's interference. It's things like this that makes you wonder whether or not if Anakin were truly fit to lead.
  7. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    OH, he should have passed on the Chancellor's suggestion - that was what Palpatine appointed him for and the Council accepted him as - the representative.

    But he should have accepted the Council's reasoning - though in an ideal world, they would not have had to hide their reasoning from him.

    Kind of a catch-22 situation - tell Anakin everything knowing (thinking/hoping) he'll have the discretion not to pass it on - which would add to his conflict and would NOT have been kept from Palpatine

    - or -

    hide everything from Anakin and have it blow up in their faces as it did.

    I'm not sure Mace & the posse marching in on Palps was the best reaction, either, so it's not all on Anakin alone.

  8. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    I disagree, I think they were totally excluding Anakin. They were treating him as the Chancellor's representative more than a Jedi. But I think the main point of the scene is as Valairy_Scot described, they were trying to draw out the Sith by making the Jedi look vulnerable. They only told him what they wanted the Chancellor to hear.
  9. IlyriaDjoDurron Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2011
    i think that deep down they wanted to trust Anakin but that they knew he would probably end up telling Palpatine
    now that I think about it....would things have been different if he had gone to the Wookiee homeworld or if he had gone with the Jedi to get Palpatine?
  10. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    If he had gone instead of Yoda, Palps would have only delayed his final "seduction" until the appropriate moment (one of the goals was to separate Anakin from Obi-Wan so he would be more susceptible).

    Gone with the Jedi - hmm. That is very tough - would Palps have been able to gain his cooperation against the Jedi in such a situation?
  11. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Good question. Maybe if Mace had been more accepting of Anakin, he wouldn't have been so eager to turn on them.

    Anakin didn't deserve to be in the loop anyway. As an earlier poster mentioned, he has serious maturity issues. Regardless of his level of Force sensitivity, he's not ready to have that kind of say in Jedi business.

    He would probably insist every important mission be given to him so he would have more opportunities to show off. :p
  12. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Strangely enough, I feel I agree AND disagree with this statement.

    Anakin knew (his internal belief) he could accomplish every mission and seemed to resent it when others were given missions that he could handle. He wanted to go to Utapau (not sure if alone, or with Obi-Wan).

    But some aspect of that was not arrogance, I feel, but a need for control. Whether or not he trusted others to do the job he knew he was capable of, I think he just trusted himself more. He should be given all these missions because he could handle all these missions - and no doubt, probably believed a successful mission would be twice as successful with him handling it.

    Taken to the exreme :p , all the Jedi should have been on a beach somewhere while Anakin did all necessary work.

    So, arrogance, a bit, yes. Lack of trust in others, yes, at least to an extent. But need for control, mainly.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    In the novelization, Anakin wanted to go to Utapau with Obi-Wan and was angry at the Council for "breaking up the team."

    And I think Valairy_Scot nailed it.

  14. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Maybe so. Did he want to control the outcome of Palpatine's "intervention," then? And if so, would he have done the right thing as the leader of the group? I'm not sure what I think.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yes, he did. He wanted to go with Mace and the others to arrest him, although I'm not sure if he wanted to lead the group. And in a way he wanted to dictate the terms, his protests came about when Mace was going to kill Palpatine, because Anakin wanted to make sure he was left alive.

    Had Anakin been in charge, he would have had Palpatine jailed and then still tried to find out this "secret" that Palpatine allegedly held about stopping death. At this point there was no good outcome for the Jedi. Had Mace been successful in killing Palpatine, the media--and the Senate, most of whom were in Palpatine's back pocket, hence the "thunderous applause" when he declared himself Emperor--would have blacklisted the Jedi for assassinating the Chancellor, and Mace would have been tried and probably convicted for murder. No one outside the Jedi Order and a handful of close Palpatine friends knew that Palpatine was a Sith.

    Had the Jedi simply taken him into custody, however, any trial would have been a farce, for the reasons that Mace mentioned. He had control of the Senate and the courts.

    I'm not sure there was a "right thing" to do regarding saving the Jedi Order and the galaxy by the time of ROTS. It was already too late. Regarding a morally correct thing to do, it's probably debatable whether it would have been more moral to stop Palpatine by arrest or death. And I don't know either.
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