Goodbye or hello: your response to force ghosts before and after ROTS

When I first saw the ending of ROTJ when it first came out,
I was under the impression that Yoda, Ben and Anakin had just
appeared to Luke in order to say goodbye as they passed
on into force one-ness.

After ROTS, and Yoda's explanation that Qui Gon had discovered
a way to retain his identity in death and commune with the living,
I had the impression that Jedi could gain immortality
through force one-ness.

This completely turns the end of ROTS on it's head for me...
Instead of Luke saying goodbye to his dead, perhaps he has the ability
to continue to commune with them. Hello, again.

EU notwithstanding, just wanted to spark a conversation
about others' interpretation of force one-ness before and after ROTS...

Have at it...

 

You must have seen ROTJ before Empire...did you forget the spirit of Obi-Wan telling Luke to go to Dagobah to train with Yoda? Also in ANH, Obi-Wan's making the transition to "the other side" as we hear his voice after Vader cuts him down....

I've had the pleasure of seeing OT in theaters as a kid, before the special editions came out. I thought that it was awesome that "Ben" was still around to guide Luke, and was always under the impression that the Jedi could use the Force to retain their form. The PT did nothing to ruin or lessen my response to the "ghosts", except for the fact that there was no visual or audible contact from Qui-Gon after he was killed, other than the "Anakin Noooooooo" during Yoda's meditation in AOTC.

 

I saw the OT in order. My interpretation was that the end of ROTJ was
the big goodbye. Obi Wan had served his purpose, and was going away.
Yoda had trained Luke about how to be a Jedi, and was saying goodbye.
Anakin had been redeemed by Luke and was saying goodbye.
This was my long-held interpretation until seeing ROTS.

 

I didn't think he was saying goodbye..I looked at it like they were visiting him, giving him a "thanks for destroying the sith and saving the galaxy" kind of acknowledgement.

 

But based on that, at the time of ROTJ, did you have the impression that they
would come back and appear to him at will? Or that they would not see him again?

 

To me it was like *You've done it son* kind of visit. Well Luke doesn't need them anymore, he can grow and be a man on his own..

 

I personally grew up with the OT and I assumed that the trio was appearing one last time to say goodbye to Luke. Luke needed to confront Vader once more to be a full fledged Jedi. He did, he won, he's a Jedi. Congrats Luke! Yay! Goodbye!

Now I would have to say it was a "Good Job, now hurry this party so we can get back to your training."

Carnage

 

Carnage, thats the exact experience I've had.
Since 1985, I thought it was goodbye, but now, after ROTS, I think
that they can continue to manifest themselves to Luke.
Perhaps, with time and training, Leia, too.

 

Hmmm, Kinda different for me, I always kinda thought they would stick around for a while.

Funny thinking about Obi Wan and Anakin catching up on old times.

'Hey member when I totally Punk'd you on Mustafar'

'Haha yea that was a BURN, got you back though on the death star.'

'Pff yea right I totaly let you win there!'

 

Well maybe they were saying goodbye. Maybe it was time for them to ascend into Force Heaven, so to speak. They stayed around to help Luke with Vader, once that was complete it was time to depart.

 

I think so.
At the end of ROTJ all characters are present: both alive and dead ones. It's like the end of a performance, when the whole company goes on the stage.

 

I did always kind of wonder how Obi-Wan and Yoda were suddenly buddy buddy with "Ghost Darth Vader". He did kill the last sith lord and fulfill the prophecy and all, but that still doesn't make up for the fact that he

A. Killed many of Obi-Wan and Yoda's friends (Including the younglings)

and

B. "Killed" Obi-Wan himself.

On a lighter note, do you think Obi-Wan lectured him for leaving his sabre behind on the blown up Death Star? "No wonder you are dead! That weapon is your life!".

Carnage

 

Wouldn't it have been grand if Luke had kept Vader's saber?

 

"That reminds me, your grandfather wanted you to have this."

Carnage

 

Did Vader's saber fall down the shaft of the DS II?

I'm thinkin it did when Luke cut off his hand on the railway.

That would make both of Anakin's saber's falling down a big, big hole.
The man just can't keep hold of a lightsaber...

 

For years, even before the prequels, I always imagined Mother's spirit (we didn't know her name was Padme then) standing in the hangar at the end of Episode VI, looking over Luke's shoulder as Anakin dies, waiting for him to cross over so she can forgive him. I like to think that, if you were good at heart, you become one with the Force and keep your identity. You can see what happens in the material world, but you can't interact with it. I don't know what happens to the people who were dark at heart, but perhaps the ones who took more than they gave are the ones who lose their identity after they die, an ultimate justice. I see the Jedi being able to retain a strong connection with the LIVING Force when they die, thus able to interact with living beings who are attuned to the Force. Assuming only the OT, this explanation "feels" right to me.

Thus I take the heretical position of disagreeing with the way this "force ghost" business was handled in Ep. III, with Yoda seeming to say, "By the way, let me explain real quick something people have been curious about since 1977. Your friend Qui conveniently discovered this new technique, see, that you'll need to know about in 20 years or so..."

 

I ve mentioned this before, but I picture a scene now where obi wan goes to get Anakin

Vader dies, death star blows. We see Luke Burning suit. Then we push in to the fire and dissolve to the banks of the lava river on Mustafar. Vader Standing there. And Ewan McGregor reaches out to him and then pulls young Anakin out of the suit. The suit falls to the ground and slides down into the lava. The mask is the last thing you see as it slips below the lava.

Then Obi-Wan hugs Anakin and tells him things are ok now. Then they walk up the hill together.

This scene would be pretty over-the-top, but thats how I see it now. Then Obi and Ani appear with Yoda to Luke.

I think Now Obi Ani Yoda and even Qui-Gon can appear to Luke anytime they want. But I think they probably wont do it much.

 

I always looked at it as Goodbye.

That is why I liked Sebastian Shaw in there, as it was the elder statesman as Jedi passing the torch to Luke, and a nod for a job well done.

Now if Lucas had developed the force-ghost plot point in ROTS, instead of a 10 second mention by Yoda, I would hold more weight to it. But it was lazy writing, and a really interesting subject in the saga that was wasted.

 

ITs Lazy viewing not Lazy writing. This is clearly one of those "we dont need everything spelled out for us" Rots was perfect the way Yoda mentions it to Obi-Wan. Its a tease. Keep in mind, people arent watching it our way anymore. Watching it 1-6 means that you dont even know about force ghosts yet. So the yoda talking to obi-wan is the posing of the question. The answers come in the OT now.

 

It is not that I need everything spelled out, but it is an interesting subject that would be very interesting to explore in the Star Wars universe. Just a small tidbit on how they do it.

I hear this all the time, "You need everything spelled out." If you go by that rationale, don't show the duel between Palpatine & Yoda, Yoda tells Luke in ROTJ, "Beware of the Emperor's powers, he all but spells out how powerful this guy is, so he has to have fought him somewhere. But is still cool to see the two most powerful jedi go at it.

Also, you don't need to see Luke & Leia being wisked away to their adopted foster parents. You learn in the next episode that Luke is born on Tatooine with Anakin's 1/2 brother, and Leia is from Alderran with her 'father' Bail Organa. That is another thing where everything is spelled out, but it is nice to see it in the movie!

People keep saying don't put in the Yoda scene cause we all know where he goes in ESB, and true you don't have to put it in, cause 'it is spelled out', but it is just very interesting to see a great warrior who ran the jedi council a fugitive going to a distant planet to live alone for the rest of his life.

So it isn't lazy viewing, it is being interested in the STORY, not just being wowed by 2 hours of special effects and action. To me personally, the story and the characters make Star Wars, the action and special effects are just the icing on the cake.

 

As a kid, I assumed that all Jedi vanished and became ghosts after death. With the prequels, we learn that Qui-Gon was the first, and that knowledge was passed down from Yoda to Obi-Wan, who may have "saved Anakin's soul" after Vader died, and brought him into that state of being. What I'm wondering is, if this is passed to Luke, will he teach it to every new Jedi he trains? Not all may be able to achieve it, but if they are taught from a young age and are skilled with the Force, it could indeed become possible for all experienced Jedi (of a certain age and midichlorian count).

 

I knew you were gonna say that. Youll notice I put in quotes "do you need everything spelled out for you"

I am well aware that this "spelled out" thing is a big subject of debate. I'm also aware that in many cases we DO need to actually see what they are talking about. However, IN THIS CASE, it is better left to our imagination. And the reason is this. Episode III is not the end. And as long as you continue to think of it as the end, you will need more answers. But its not. Lucas made this movie to be part three. And to be viewed by people who have not yet watched the OT. Even if you don't like that, you can't argue against things he did with that in mind.

If all you have seen is Phantom and Clones, what you know is this? Jedis die. And you have no reason whatsoever to wonder if there is anything else going on. When you hear qui-gon in AOTC, you will most likely just think that is a stylish movie gimmick. Nothing more suspicious than that. So when you get to the end of ROTS, you get Yoda talking to Obi-Wan. Its a hook. You dont want to give them the whole story at this point. Just a hook. Like I am your father was a hook to make people say Whoa I cant wait to see the next one. Same with this. People watch ROTS and say, Hey what was that about Qui-Gon and immortality. Whoa!

Then when they see Obi-Wan die in ANH, its a double Whoa! Then when they hear his voice. Then they see him appear in ESB. They will see that the answer is. "wow qui-gon learned how to come back as some kind of ghost and taught obi-wan. And you see, question posed..question answered.

And thats how it is. Who knows "how" they do it. Who cares. What would it matter. You people hated midi-chlorians because it demystified the force, yet now you demand to know technically how Qui-Gon learned to disappear? Thats like people saying Moses parting the Red Sea was just a weird sort of Sand Bar that appeared due to some position of the moon. Even if its true, its just cooler to think of Charlton Heston standing on a rock with his arms spread.

-T

 

I dont disagree with you in most cases. I just think that you are thinking too much like an "old schooler" YOu are thinking like someone for whom ROTS is the end of it. And I understand that. All of us will try to pretend that we can imagine what it is like to watch it 1-6 for the first time. But we can't be sure. I believe if a new person watches it 1-6, they will find it works well the way it is. Its a close call. I do not think it would ruin anything to include Qui-Gon. But I do think it would come off as too talkie, and it works better as a teaser for Ep4 this way.

My only point is, that Lucas is clearly intent on people watching these things 1-6. So while you can disagree with that attitude. You cant disagree with things he did to support that intention. Especially if your arguments are based on the idea that this is the final episode for you, so you want more answers.


I didnt have any problems with Midi-Chlorians either. I had no problems in Clones. Who hired Jango, Who hired the kaminoans, who erased the files. All that was pretty clear to me. So I was surprised to hear people having problems with that stuff.

I think stylistically it works better without Qui-Gon and I dont have any questions left unanswered.

 

We hear Qui-Gon in AotC and that's all we need. Considering this whole Force Ghost thing is probably new to Qui-Gon, he's sorta wingin' this as he goes,

Anyway, I don't think it's inconceivable to think that the Force Ghost trick is something that took years and years to really understand since it was new. Then come ANH, Yoda and Obi-Wan have learned much and know what will happen and what they need to do. Obi-Wan walks around as a ghost in ESB and RotJ so to me, once Anakin has returned, it's time for our 3 heroes to go where they belong.