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Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by DarthBoba, Oct 23, 2012.

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  1. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    He's probably someone who either can't breathe Tatooine's air, or can't survive in Tatooine's gravity/air pressure.
  2. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    And the costume department could use that one for a lot less money than making a unique spacesuit.
  3. JediSenshi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    What ever happened to Owen & Beru's remains?
  4. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I'd assume Luke buried them. The Jawa crematory is going pretty good by the time he gets back to Obi-Wan and the droids.

    Jeez, nothing like starting off the day trying to keep your grumpy uncle from getting pissed at you and never seeing your foster parents alive again, huh?
    SlashMan likes this.
  5. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    One of the cooler scenes of Empire Strikes Back was the little standoff between Luke and Boba Fett on Bespin.

    But I've still got a question: I've seen fans analyze the scene, and Boba actually turns his head once Luke draws his blaster, and proceeds to surprise him and open fire. After missing, he then ducks and runs away. I presume he was given specific orders from Vader regarding Luke, which was why he didn't stay to finish the job. But if he was ordered not to kill Luke by Vader, why does he even bother going back and firing warning shots at Luke?
  6. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Probably to keep Luke from following too closely.
  7. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    Force of habit and trained muscle memory. See a Jedi, shoot the Jedi.
  8. darthrich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2001
    I haven't signed into this account in like five years. However, as a freshman in high school (1999) I would spend hours on theforce.net. Now, all these years later there are still a couple of questions that have been bugging me. So I have a couple to ask actually... hopefully I can get some decent answers from people that know what they're talking about.

    Force Ghost
    I understand why Qui-gon doesn't disappear (TPM)
    I understand why Obi-wan disappears (ANH)
    I understand why Yoda disappears (ROTJ)
    But I don't understand why Anakin/Vader doesn't disappear (ROTJ)
    Why not? He becomes a Force Ghost almost immediately afterwards. If they're going to make changes with SE and DVD and Blu-ray releases, these are the inconsistencies that I would like to be fixed. Unless there is some glaringly-obvious reason that I'm not picking up on. ???

    Balance to the force
    So is this just a poor choice of wording or what? I'm trying to understand the concept of "balance" to the force. Anakin supposedly brings balance to the force by killing the emperor. But "balance" in the world I live in is a synonym for "opposite". Good and evil, pleasure and pain, love and joy all exist to create balance. You know, as in yin and yang: http://the310course.com/IMAGES/600px-Yin_and_Yang.svg.png

    The Son of Suns
    Watch this:

    During the new ending celebration in ROTJ it shows various planets celebrating the collapse of the empire. On cloud city you can hear someone shout "Freedom!". On Tattoine the crowd roars and I think somebody says something but I can't make it out. On Naboo you can hear a Gungan shout "We-sa Free!". Then on Courscant I can make out somebody shouting what I think is "The son of sons, the son of suns!". Can anyone else make it out? If they truly are saying that, why would they say that then and there? And what is exactly the son of sons? I always thought it was Luke.

    Why does Leia say she has memories of her mother? (ROTS)
    She dies giving birth to her. - plot hole?

    Darth Vader vs. Obi-wan Kenobi - (ROTS)
    Not so much of a question here but did anyone else find the final battle on Mustafar a let down? For years fans envisioned how that battle might have gone down. It has always rubbed me the wrong way how Obi-wan was able to "beat" Vader. I mean, Anakin has all these mediclorians, he's the chosen one, he's supposed to be better than obi-wan, but in the end-- he wasn't. How can the most powerful Jedi ever be beat Obi-wan? Wouldn't that make Obi-wan the most powerful Jedi ever?

    What I would have liked to have seen was an apprentice dueling his master---and beating his master until imminent death was upon him. And then at the last moment (not due to any action of obi-wan) something goes wrong and Vader is torched. For example, like the volcano erupts and vader is covered in lava by accident. Or out of his anger he force-grabs a huge bolder to throw at Obi-wan but it unplugs a bunch of lava from the side of the mountain and it spills onto him. Or something along those lines. That way Obi-wan isn't really the victor, but Vader brought it upon himself (increasing the "pity" theme). I dunno, that's kinda how I always saw it.

    Also, not really a question but...

    I LOVED Revenge of the Sith. However, I felt that the ending was extremely rushed. 20 years of expectations were satisfied in literally the last 10 minutes of the film (I timed it). Vader is torched, he dons the suit, the twins are born and named, their mother dies, Yoda says he'll teach Obi-wan about force ghosts, etc. (which is the only explanation given?!), the death star is starting to be constructed, the droids memories are wiped clean, Leia is adopted by Bail Organa and taken to Alderan, and Luke is taken to Tattoine to live with his step uncle and aunt. Seriously? These were questions/expectations we waited 20 years to be answered/seen. They could have been milked this for the last 1/4 of the movie (30 min) and fans would have loved it.

    ...All the more reason why I hate Attack of the Clones. So much time was wasted in that movie when there was so much other cool stuff that got barely any screen time.
  9. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    It's not shown, but I find the novel explanation to be satisfying enough; the body of Anakin Skywalker fades away, while the armor of Vader (the last remnants of his evil past) burns away. Besides, Yoda and Obi-Wan appeared in the garbs they died in; I for one would be very confused if Ghost Anakin came back in Darth Vader armor.
    The wording is confusing, yes, but Lucas has explained it clearly: balance is not measured in literal numbers of Jedi and Sith, but the usage of the Force itself. In other words, the Sith were abusing and manipulating it, while the Jedi used it for defense and knowledge.
    I honestly never knew about this in ROTJ, but I am familiar with the term when relating to Star Wars:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Son_of_Suns
    Basically, most fans know this mysterious phrase from the first draft of A New Hope. What it means is still up to debate, as is the topic of the Whills themselves.
    Yeah, it's a plot hole, but with everything else they had to connect in ROTS, I'm not too let down by this. Leia was originally raised by her biological mother at an early age until her death, but that was made more immediate in ROTS. Still, fans have their explanations for how her line can still make sense (The Force is often brought up). Search around, there's a ton of topics on that around here.
    Obi-Wan is never shown to have a clear advantage, in fact, Anakin shows no signs of fatigue once Obi-Wan is beginning to wear out. It's Obi-Wan's wit that gets him out of this situation, not his brute strength. Kenobi merely outsmarted Vader, despite being technically less powerful.

    As for your opinions on the prequels, to each his own.
  10. darthrich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Thanks, for your helpful response to clarify some of these.

    I've ALWAYS wanted to read the novelizations. I need to do that one of these days. I'm sort of a purist, so all the other crazy explanations and EU stuff is just kinda silly to me. Although I do respect it. However, the novelizations are cannon in my mind. Don't ask me how my logic determines why somethings are and some things aren't cannon, because I don't know.

    So the fact that he disappears in the novel does give me some peace of mind. Thank you. I'm not a SE hater, but if you're going to spend money on special effects, spend it on that rather than fixing his eyebrows! They really need to show that happening rather than some sort of off-screen disappearance. Because it's inconsistent with Obi-wan and Yoda death. They both vanish right away while Vader just lays there for awhile. That seems like an easy and obvious fix to me. ?

    That same sound clip can also be heard in the ending Phantom Menace celebration:

    From seconds 11-15 you can hear the same sound clip shouting the same thing. Weird huh?

    Just to clarify, I'm not a prequel hater. I like Phantom Menace and I loved Revenge of the Sith. Hate is a strong word for Attack of the Clones. I take that back. But it's definitely my least favorite of the franchise--by far. Bad acting, bad pacing, bad CG, but you're right... this is just my opinion.
    SlashMan likes this.
  11. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    No one is saying "son of suns." It just a noise that some people think they are hearing but isn't really there. Like Mark Hamill saying "Carrie!" at the end of E4.
    Yes, but certainly not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
    I don't think having more midi-chlorians automatically makes you more powerful than someone with fewer midi-chlorians, or automatically makes you a Master. There still has to be a great deal of study, training and learning. For example, in E1 we learn that the Anakin child has more midi-chlorians than even Yoda, but something tells me if they had a duel to the death at that time, Yoda would win. So by the end of E3, sure Vader has had some training, but his high midi-chlorian count doesn't automatically make him the greatest Jedi/Sith in the galaxy. We are very much given the impression that in terms of power, the Sidious-Yoda duel is the main event, with Anakin-Obi-Wan as the undercard. So despite having the highest midi-chlorian count, he is not as powerful as Yoda, not as powerful as Sidious, and, for most of the battle, can really only fight Obi-Wan to a virtual draw.
    Hardcore fans may have liked it, but mainstream fans would not, and it would have been bad for the movie's pacing. You have a just-over 2 hour movie, you can't have 25% of the movie remaining after the climax. Return of the King took some criticism for that same thing, and that movie was almost 4 hours.
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 19, 2013
  12. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    I think the same way in terms of canon, Lucas had different things in mind than some of the ideas the EU introduced. In fact, he pretty much just ignored it largely. Though in his defense, the EU does contradict the movies, especially in terms of bringing back dead characters.

    And while I don't personally hear the sound in question, if it is indeed there, that might point to the Son of Suns being Anakin and not Luke. Again, people have hypothesized that that old phrase may have had connections to the Chosen One prophecy of Episode I. Only Lucas knows. There's a lot of strange coincidences and ancient ideas that Lucas put into play many years later.
  13. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    You know, I'm kind of curious: has this "hidden sound theory" thing ever been true? Ever?
  14. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    What dead characters has the EU brought back besides Palpatine? And actually, Palpatine's return from death makes perfect sense, given his search for immortality that he described in ROTS. I fail to see how that is a contradiction.
  15. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    Boba Fett, Darth Maul, among others, but those are the main examples.

    I don't mean to get into an EU argument, but I was just making a point. A contradiction is when we're given a different outcome than was seen in the movie; would audiences in 1983 immediately assume Palpatine survived? Darth Maul? Hell, no one even cared what happened to Boba Fett back then. My point is that the filmmakers did not intend for a lot of the things that resulted in the EU. I have no problem with it, I just don't consider it canon in my books; you may think differently.
  16. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Darth Maul wasn't resurrected in the EU, and since Boba Fett was never dead to begin with, that's not a resurrection either.
  17. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Er, no. TCW is EU (albeit of a sort with more direct involvement from Lucas), and I'm not sure why Boba Fett should be presumed alive until otherwise proven.
  18. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    The TCW is not EU. It's T-level canon, which is one step up from the EU, which is C-level. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

    Boba Fett should be presumed alive because:

    1) He was alive when he fell into the Sarlacc pit
    2) We are told that the Sarlacc takes a long time to digest its victims
    3) Boba Fett is equipped with armor, a jet pack and a whole arsenal of weaponry.
    Last edited by timmoishere, Sep 19, 2013
  19. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    Like I said, I'm not here to debate this, or try to tell you that your beliefs are wrong. All I've done is state my opinion.
  20. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    Very, very weak. They brought Darth Maul back and the not a single person left ROTJ thinking Boba Fett survived, and there can be no doubt that Lucas' intent in that scene was Boba Fett's death.

    It's the problem the EU faces. The most popular villains all die in the movies but, in order to sell books and comics and TV commercials, they cheat by bringing those characters back. As long as the movies don't try anything that idiotic, I'm happy.
    SlashMan likes this.
  21. darthrich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2001

    ...This is a perfect example of why I don't like the EU. Ultra-nerdy third party conjecture is rampant. And so people can just fill in the gaps with whatever they want. That's basically what these authors do.

    I don't know about you but when I see a bad guy fall down a deep dark hole on the silver screen, and we never see him again, call me naive but I just take what I see at face value, and assume the storyteller wants me to think he's a goner. So I do. If I was telling a story that's one way I would convey it to my audience. But that rational would be absurd, since we never actually saw Emperor Palpatine crack his skull open on the way down that huge shaft, we should probably consider him to be alive and be the bad guy for Episode VII. Right?

    I think fans just get desperate for more material or something so they turn to third-party material. Again that's cool with me, because if it entertains you and make you happy, then great! I just don't personally see the appeal or take it seriously. That said, when first-party material contradicts itself, it makes it that much more frusterating and unacceptable.

    Wow, I haven't done this in years. It feels good to have a friendly Star Wars debate... :) :)
    Last edited by darthrich, Sep 19, 2013
    Vthuil likes this.
  22. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    +1. The EU is just silliness.
    That's exactly what I was thinking too, except about Boba Fett. After all, he got reincarnated in the EU, right? So he should be around for E7.
    That's exactly right. And I find it amusing how seriously people take the EU when Lucas himself has said he doesn't really read those books and when it came time to make the prequels, he had no problem throwing away all the stuff from the EU (Jaster Mareel, anyone?)
  23. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Jaster Mereel was an alias that Boba Fett used in his late teens. It was never meant to be his real name. How is that "Lucas throwing out the EU?" For the record, the real Jaster Mereel was Jango's mentor when Jango was younger.

    And actually, nothing from the EU was thrown out when Lucas made the prequels. All of the EU that existed at the time is still exactly as relevant as it is now.
    Last edited by timmoishere, Sep 19, 2013
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Some statements were though.

    In the Han Solo trilogy book 3, Rebel Dawn, Chewie's stated to have never returned to Kashyyyk in the last 50 years- RoTS puts him on Kashyyyk less than 20 years before the events of that book.
  25. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    That is untrue. Chewie tells Han in The Hutt Gambit that he hasn't seen Mallatobuck in 50 years. In Rebel Dawn, while Han does tell Lando that Chewie hasn't been back to Kashyyyk in 50 years, that's not a direct contradiction, it's just Han assuming that Chewie hadn't been to Kashyyyk in that time. I think a direct statement made by Chewie is more reliable than Han retelling it to Lando a couple years later.

    So the obvious solution is that Chewie had been on Kashyyyk, but for whatever reason, did not see Mallatobuck while he was there.
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