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Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by DarthBoba, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. IrB

    IrB Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 16, 2016
    I agree. How much formal education Luke needed to go to Academy depends mostly on what exactly Academy was. Maybe we are prone to think it as an Institution with the standards of an University (and that would imply Luke should have a high school level education), but maybe it was just a way to enlist the most expendable young people of the Galaxy on the combat fields (which with be a lot in line with Empire politics) and so perhaps the recruites' culture wasn't important at all, but they evaluated force, reflex, health, aim and so on, all things Luke knew he excelled at. I guess ANH simply doesn't give insight on the matter.
    I was under impression Luke worked regularly at the farm and didn't go to school at the time of ANH. But I see it depends mostly on the translation of "chores" in the Italian dubbing with a word that implies a regular job. It looks like maybe the original version isn't so definitive.
     
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  2. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    To my knowledge "chore" is completely unrelated to education. It's also not any type of homework, but something his uncle gave him to do to help, whether that was repairing things, buying parts or whatever. I don't think you get paid for chores either, so it's not the same as "work". But then I'm not a native speaker myself. However one thing I learned is to never ever trust a dubbed version of any movie again. I myself grew up with dubbed versions of both ANH and ESB, and some of the translations were nothing short of disasters. I have stayed away from everything but the original version of any movie for the past 20 years, no matter which language, and will never again voluntarily watch one again. Give me subtitles anytime over a dubbed movie.
     
  3. IrB

    IrB Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 16, 2016
    In the case of "chore" in the Italian dubbing, I guess you can't blame the translators, because I think there isn't an exact way to render the word in Italian. The most similar word means "housework", but it's used mostly for things like cleaning dishes, laundering or tiding up: it would sound odd and the audience would probably expect Luke cleaning his bedroom, not a droid! So I guess they were simply out of options and "work" was the best word they could come up with.
    I guess that the basic problem with dubbings is that in several cases words aren't exactly equivalent in a language to an other one.
    For example, "master" had to be translated with three different Italian words in the OT. In fact, it can be translated literally: 1) with a word that means "teacher of a student"; it implies respect, but also maybe some sort of fondness; this is used when Luke address to Yoda; 2) with an other totally different word that means "owner of stuffs or slaves" and this is used when on Endor Vader says Luke: "The emperor is your master now". The sentence sounds even more harsh and incisive in Italian than in English, because one single word makes clear (in a way you probably can't in English) that Luke's life will be jeopardized at Palpatine's whim.
    But both those words would sounds weird in Italian if Vader would use one of them to relate himself to Palpatine. So, when Vader speaks of or to Palpatine, "my master" was translated with a word that means "my lord". It isn't a literal translation, but it's probably the best option at hand.
    Anyway, I find always interesting to analyze how a word is translated from a language to an other one, because words have nuances that exist just in that language, so in translating you must "interpret" them in a way or in other one, and in some sense that resembles a real artistic rewriting of a work.
    But I'm afraid I'm going totally out of topic now! :)
     
  4. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Interesting! I kind of wondered myself what experience other people had with movies dubbed into their languages. The same is true for my language, some English words, including "chore", simply don't exist, at least not with exactly the same meaning. How do you generally feel about the SW movies' Italian versions? Well done? Disaster? I don't think you are going off-topic, since this thread is called "got a question?". That means anything relating to SW can be asked or discussed, at least I think so. If not, for me this topic is interesting enough even to have its own thread. I don't know how many non-native English speakers there are on this forum, but if there are enough of us we could open a thread dedicated to experiences with foreign language versions of the saga, positive or negative. So if there is enough interest I'll open such a thread.;)
    What do the mods think?
     
  5. IrB

    IrB Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 16, 2016
    Since you are interested about the dubbing, I will answer more in details about Italian one, hoping the post wouldn't be too boring. And of course, this is just what I noticed after watching OT several times both in Italian and English. But I'm not graduated in English or having technical experience about dubbing, so they are just my feelings and impressions.

    In order to evaluate the Italian dubbing of SW, I guess you should take into consideration four different sides of the dubbing:
    1. common terms;
    2. invention of necessary neologisms;
    3. adjustment of names for euphony;
    4. dubbers' perform.

    1) About the translation of common terms, in general, I think they made it well. They handle well the difficult words as "master" as I pointed out in my previous post.
    For example, they also adjust in a very interesting way the problem of polite form; in fact in Italian we have three kind of register: a) the informal form (thou), used with relatives and friends; b) an "ancient" polite form (you), for formal conversations with people you aren't close to, that was used mainly until the IIWW; c) a "modern" polite form (she, used also for men: oddness of languages!!), that has been used just since IIWW, so it sounds contemporary and can't be used for example in a movie about Middle Age. Given the basically timeless bubble of SW comparing to earth history, the translators chose to use in general the "ancient" polite form when the relationship between the characters required them to be formal. They also distinguished wisely the different situations: for example, Luke uses the ancient polite form speaking to Palpatine (a farmboy would never, ever use the informal form to address to an Emperor, even if he's trying to kill him!), but Palpatine uses the informal form to speak to Luke, which to an Italian audience is much in line with trying to put Luke in place as "boy" and "apprentice". At the beginning of ANH, Luke, Leia and Han use the "modern" formal form: they are all young and it doesn't sound odd they use the more modern way. Then at some point they slip into the informal form: they are becoming friends. Oddly, Vader address to Palpatine using the informal form. I don't know what exactly translators had in mind, weather marking the familiarity of the two Sith or, on the contrary, Vader's almost religious devotion to Palpatine (deity is addressed with thou in Italian).
    A difficult side they could handle enough well is Yoda's grammar, which is a bit more difficult to create in Italian, because you can't use the auxiliary verb in the same way you do in English and so you must switch totally the sentence (which combining with the longer construction of Italian sentences can become complex in some cases). But they were able to create his typical language, that is understood by audience and even used as joke by fans.
    About the translation in itself, the most annoying thing is in ANH, where there are two grammar errors. Both Obi-Wan and Luke mistake once the conjugation of verb. Luke's error is very clear but not very bothersome, because most uncultured Italian people usually do the very same mistake and so it can be easily accepted as part of the character's background, giving the idea that he spend more time in farming than in school. But for the very same reason, Obi-Wan's mistake is irritating, because it isn't in line with the character's background at all.

    2) About neologism, sometimes they left original names, when they didn't sound too weird (for example, Jawa). Sometimes they created new terms that work: for example, Tusken was translated into "sabbipode", which comes from "sabbia" ("sand" in Italian) and "podos" ("foot" in ancient Greek, root remained in several Italian words). Sometimes, they simply translated: for example, X-Wing is "Ala-X", the very same thing. Sometimes, in ANH the adjustment wasn't so good: for example, "starpilot" was translated into a cacophonous neologism, when they could maybe use existing Italian words; or "clone wars" became inexplicably "guerra dei quoti", where "quoto" is a term from mathematics that hasn't any sense in the context, while "clone" is the very same term in Italian (for AOTC and cartoons, they conveniently correct it into "guerra dei cloni", but the ANH traslation remains a horrid line into the saga).

    3) Several names were changed to adapt them to Italian pronunciation.
    Some change were really minimal: Han became Ian (i is pronounced "ee" in Italian and it's probably the more similar Italian sound they could come up with, giving "h" in the beginning of a word is totally aphonic in Italian); Leia is Leila (Leila does sound better, but it wasn't a necessary change at all: Leia can be pronounced without effort in Italian).
    Some changes gave a lot of problems: R2D2 was changed into C1P8 and C3PO into D3PO. In the OT the change was made for euphonic reasons, but the translators didn't know the power of merchandising! :D The changes could create hesitation in buying merchandising when the labels weren't translated or to browse internet, so in the PT the names came back to the original English version and now we have a big, clear inconsistency into the saga.
    An other, huge change was the name of Darth Vader into Darth Fener (Fener hasn't any special hidden meaning, it just follow enough the lip movement, but I guess we must forgive the translators for not having imaged in ANH they should choose a name that hide the meaning "father"). In this case, I guess they were really out of option: Vader in Italian sounds almost similar to "toilet" (water in Italian, where "w" sounds just like "v" and "a" just like in "Darth"), you can easily image the hilarious effect would cause hearing something like "lord toiled" and "darth toiled". When ROTS came out, responsible of Italian dubbing did a poll on the most important Italian SW fan site, asking if they must go on with "Fener" or use "Vader", "Fener" won and they followed the result... fortunately, I would add! :)

    4) Last but least, dubbing change significantly the performing, because dubbers' abilities as actors can improve or worsen the performance. Some characters are better in Italian than in English and vice versa.
    For example, Luke and Leia are better in English. I know that a lot of people complain because Luke sounds too whiny. In Italian he sounds more adult and serious (as consequence, for example, you wouldn't find many Italian fanfictions that portray Luke like whining or too much youngish), but in general Hamill's performance is better than his Italian dubber's and Luke works better in English, so I guess he must just be whining at the beginning of his adventure.
    On the contrary, Han is better performed in Italian and IMHO also Obi-Wan Kenobi (oddly enough, given Alec Guinness).
    IMHO the character that is really tarnished in Italian is Palpatine in ROTJ. I don't know what result the dubber wanted to reach, but Palpatine sounds as a mad out of control in Italian, more than a cruel e scheming man. He just doesn't work and you ask yourself how this guy could have gained the government of Galaxy! Plus, a mad man is less freightening than a cruel one, after all.
    About Darth Vader I don't know which version I prefer: Italian version is performed well, with profundity and feeling, but the voice is less dark. Plus, after all Vader is supposed to be unfeeling, isn't he?

    At the end, when I watch alone the OT (meaning I haven't to care whether people around me speak English or not), I prefer to watch it in English, not for the translation in itself, but for the performing of actors in general (balacing pro and con). But, anyway, I don't feel like Italian dubbing was bad in the way it ruined movies or something like that, in general it was an adequate work.
     
  6. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Thanks! Your post is very informative and insightful! Good job! You say you didn't graduate in English but express yourself very well. Also you really seem to have analyzed each version thoroughly. Some of the name changes do surprise me a little, but as you say, that is often unavoidable. On the whole, the Italian translation appears to do a better job than that in my language. Incidentally, I have recently read a book about translating by Umberto Eco, the original title I think is Dire quasi la stessa cosa. Esperienze di traduzione, unfortunately not in the original version. A little scientific for a non-linguist like myself, but pretty interesting.
    Translating a movie like SW must be especially challenging, probably into any language. However, there is no excuse for some stupid and lazy mistakes. I remember when I watched ANH as a kid in the dubbed version, and a few years later the original, I was "shocked" to find that a whole line is missing in the translation. When Han and Leia talk on the Falcon on the way to Yavin, Han says "easy? You call that easy?" - Leia: "They have been tracking us" (a vital piece of "information" and character development because it shows how Leia doubts Han and his over-confidence) - "Not this ship sister" (showing Han's total confidence in his ship). Leia's line was left out making it sound like the escape was especially difficult because of the Falcon: "You call that easy?" - short pause but no reply from Leia - "Not with this ship sister!" (dubbed version). That turns the meaning into its exact opposite, also diminishes Leia's sarcastic attitude towards Han. Those are the little things I find annoying, because they are completely unnecessary and even "damaging" changes. It could be they fixed those mistakes in later versions, but I have stopped watching movies in my language. ;)
     
  7. IrB

    IrB Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 16, 2016
    In my work, I edited several book proofs translated from English in Italian for an Italian publisher, so translating isn't my direct job, but the adaptation into Italian language is exactly what I do. First translations are mostly correct grammatically, but they often show too much from which language they were translated, preserving some typical constructs of the original language. An editing by someone who isn't a translator helps to fix the problem.
    But I'm aware that who works on books has much less problems than who translates for dubbing, because you can adapt the sentence caring just of its meaning, without worrying if it becomes longer (Italian translation of a sentence is often longer than the original English sentence). I can imagine how many problems can arise if you must respect some fixed length and I guess the need to follow the lip movement requires to be imaginative at best.
    For example, Death Star should be translated litterally "Stella della Morte", which is way too long to be pronounce into the lip movement of actors, so they changed it into "Morte Nera" (Black Death: just as the plague in the Middle Age!): much shorter, more euphonic and as immediate as the English version. So, they don't respect the letter of the name, but its immediate, threatening essence. It's surely an example of a creative adaption at best.
    An interesting example of change caused by lip movement is when Luke answers "Yes sir" to his uncle: In Italian it would be literally "Sì, signore", but it was adjusted into "Sì, zio" (literally: "Yes, uncle"). If it was a book, it would be a debatable change, because it subtly alters relationship between characters (I'm under impression the whole Italian adaptation of the scenes at Lars' farm tends in general to soften a little the strain between Luke and his uncle). But into a movie is a very convenient change, because the lip movement are almost the same and you can see the scene almost if an Italian actor was filmed.
    Other times, the change is necessary to adapt to different use of an idiom. For example, in ROTS when Obi-Wan tells Anakin "I loved you" and Anakin answers "I hate you", they could follow the literal translation of the former sentence ("Ti odio"), but Obi-Wan's line was changed into something that means like "I cared for you" ("Ti volevo bene"), because "Ti amavo" ("I loved you") in Italian would have imply some kind of romantic affairs between them that isn't implied in English. Unfortunately, the exchange "I cared for you"/"I hate you" isn't as effective as "I loved you"/"I hate you". But they were out of options here.


    Well, forgetting the dubbing of a line does sounds lazy! I wonder whose fault is, whether the translators, or dubbers, or editor.
     
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  8. IrB

    IrB Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 16, 2016
    It must be "letter" here.
    I'm sorry for the double post, but I can't find a way to edit it :confused:
     
  9. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Normally, you have 30 mins from the original post to edit. In that event, we normally recommend you wait for an intervening post unless a substantial amount of time (i.e., days) has elapsed.
     
  10. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    I don't know if this has come up before but...

    What exactly is Nien Nunb saying in Return of the Jedi?

    Could there be a translation from his language (actual speaking) around somewhere?
     
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    If I google it - I get references to him speaking two languages - one is called out as Kalenjin, and one is Kikuyu/Hyah (is Hyah a dialect of Kikuyu?)


    'Atirizi inyui mwi hau inyouthe ukai haha.''

    ''What are you doing over there? All of you please come here."


    That was the one sentence. I'm not sure what the other sentence - the Kalenjin one, translated as.



     
  12. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Moving to Questions thread.
     
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  13. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006

    Thanks, I rarely visit beyond the Lit thread.
     
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  14. Dr_Cthulhu

    Dr_Cthulhu Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 29, 2015
    Is there any evidence of faster than light communications in the OT or PT? I've read that the scene in ESB where Vader is contacted by the Emperor is one such instance, as the supreme leader is supposedly on Coruscant many light years away. If such technology exists, why isn't its use more widespread? Could not the Rebels on Scarif, for example, have transmitted the data to a more remote location rather than to a ship in the same system? It's been suggested that the Empire has control of this, but I don't see how. Surely, if they can easily jam such transmissions, then stopping communication within a system would be child's play by comparison - and yet the Rebels are able to get away with transmitting whatever they want, even unsecured.
     
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  15. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Again your post was very informative! You are right, this kind of thing is lazy to say the least. I just found out that they haven't fixed that mistake even in the latest dubbed version.
    I always thought all communication to more remote planets had to be faster than light, if we assume that light and transmission signals to have the same speed as in our universe. From Earth the closest solar system is already over 4 light years away, the furthest could be hundreds or thousands of LYs. Again, if we assume the SW galaxy to be roughly similar to ours in size it would literally take years to even communicate with a nearby system, meaning communication would be impossible. I have no idea if it's written anywhere, but there just has to be communication through hyperspace in order for there to be any communication at all. There simply is no other way for the movies to make any sense at all.
     
  16. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Dr_Cthulhu wrote

    Could not the Rebels on Scarif, for example, have transmitted the data to a more remote location rather than to a ship in the same system? It's been suggested that the Empire has control of this, but I don't see how. Surely, if they can easily jam such transmissions, then stopping communication within a system would be child's play by comparison - and yet the Rebels are able to get away with transmitting whatever they want, even unsecured.

    IMHO, there are two things to consider:

    First, we witnessed in ANH that it took the Falcon's navi-computer considerable time to get a precise fix on the Alderaan System, partially / probably because the Falcon had to evade the two Imperial cruisers. I would think the same applies to data transmission, i.e. you need to get a precise fix of the recipient and that's much more difficult than transmitting data to a recipient in the vicinity (e.g. Leia's Tantive IV - cough).

    Second - this is something the folks at new Lucasfilm didn't quite get, IMO - jamming can be extremely effective. What we saw in ANH was the Devastator with its com-scan array extended / in the upright 'jamming' position (in contrast to the retracted com-scan arrays aboard Devastator-class Star Destroyers featured in ESB).
    Does anybody here seriously believe that Captain Antilles did not try to send a message that the "consular ship Tantive IV" was under the illegal attack of an Imperial Star Destroyer?

    Most assuredly, Devastator's jamming prevented that any call made by the Tantive IV was received anywhere. Here is what Vader's lieutenant had to say:

    Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out, it could generate sympathy for the Rebellion in the senate.

    Apparently he was concerned that talk among the stormtroopers about whom they had captured might eventually leak out. Had there been any concern that a message from the Tantive IV might haven gotten out, he would have said "if word of this got out". ;)
     
  17. CaptainYossarian

    CaptainYossarian Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 30, 2003
    I always assumed that communications over vast distances go through hyperspace the same way that ships do. There would be transmission arrays or beacons throughout the galaxy that relay messages through hyperspace, and so messages arrive instantly and conversations can be had normally. So in that sense the comms aren't so much going faster than light, just appearing to by going through hyperspace.

    If there were such communication systems then I suppose the Empire would control it as they do any other public service. It could be though that there is little they could actually do to stop the Rebels sending messages if the sources are hidden and they are sent in code. The Rebels may even have their own facilities that are independent of the Imperial network. There were many Senators who were members of the Alliance or sympathised with them, so maybe those planets allowed the Rebels to use their communication systems and in that way the Rebel messages were hidden from Imperial interception - ie the Empire would never know where to look.

    In Rogue One the Rebels could potentially have sent the Death Star plans elsewhere, out of the system, but I believe the large size of the data files created a problem with that. Bodhi had to contact the Rebel fleet in order to tell them to stand by to receive the transmission, so perhaps if they had tried sending them elsewhere to someone not expecting them they wouldn't be properly received. Or they may have been intercepted or traced by the Empire. Another point is that events happened quite quickly - Bodhi sent the plans to Raddus, who was then planning on fleeing but no one had time to think of sending them elsewhere - Bodhi had only recently joined the Rebels and so wouldn't have known who to contact, and Raddus didn't have time before his ship was disabled. The Tantive IV could have sent the plans somewhere else, but since they didn't I suppose you have to conclude that they also couldn't, or didn't want to because it may have given away the position or their base or given the Empire evidence against them. Leia was trying to maintain that she knew nothing about the plans - which is why they were not held in the Tantive's computer but only on a single copy which Leia gave to R2. At that stage she believed her position as a senator would protect her from arrest - although Vader knew the ship had received the plans, Leia believed that the lack of any evidence meant she would not be harmed. Of course, it was the existence of the Death Star that emboldened the Imperials to act even against people like Leia.



    On the point about translations of the OT, I once read a comment online about a Norwegian version - where the 'light' in 'lightsaber' had been incorrectly translated to words that meant 'not heavy'.
     
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  18. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Wow, this is what I call "artistic liberties" :eek:
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    We see the "raised" array in all ANH scenes though - even the one with the Devastator heading toward the Death Star.

    And in Rogue One, we see the raised array at all times, even when "jamming" probably wouldn't be in play.

    Conversely, in TESB, when they're "making sure that nothing gets off the system" it would make sense to jam all transmissions too - yet the arrays are "down"

    Makes sense to me that it would be different designs of array, rather than one that can be moved up and down.

    And that, in short, they cut off the top of the array of the Devastator model used in TESB.
     
  20. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006

    I used those "bars" to tell the difference between ISDIs and ISDIIs. I didn't consider the idea they rise or fall. If anything they both look extremely different.
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The ISD-I and ISD-II bars look different in close-up

    ISD-I with array "lowered" (actually the top cut off) - seen in front of Executor in TESB:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor/Legends?file=Executor_and_escorts.jpg

    The theory is that somehow the ISD-I seen in ANH can lower its array so that it looks like the ones seen in TESB - most notably in the above pic.
     
  22. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Weren't they consider Tractor Beam projectors on ISDI's though?
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The EU and newcanon has tended to tie them to tractor beams, yes - as targeting arrays, though not as the projectors themselves.
     
  24. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006

    So they could be different for both classes.

    ISDI's get the Xs, the ISDII's get the single bar.
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Executor's is a "tractor beam targeting array" according to newcanon Complete Locations, too.

    Possibly the ISD-I TESB Variant, is an intermediate design, in between the standard ISD-I and the ISD-II's.