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Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Kabers, Nov 25, 2013.

  1. Kabers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Mod action/edit: This is now the Saga Forum's 'random questions' thread, for minor queries and issues that probably don't need whole threads.


    I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask these questions, but—

    1. If Qui-Gonn Jinn is such a powerful and experienced Jedi master than how come Darth Maul, a Sith Apprentice, was able to kill him so easily?

    2. Has anyone else noticed that two of the most powerful Sith lords in history (Darth Vader and Count Dooku) were both former Jedi?

    3. Why was Luke able to resist the Dark side, while Anakin was not? A student i knew in High School asked this question and when he did, my answer was: Luke was in a position where the Sith could still be defeated, while Anakin was convinced that his conversion to the Sith was already ordained to be. Was i right to say this?

    4. When you compare them, who has accomplished more; Anakin or Luke? Anakin was sired by the force, he took down a space station as a child, killed a Sith Lord with much more experience, fought off his apprentice on a daily basis, gave his mentor a run for his money and brought about the end of the Jedi order. Luke was sired in the normal way, he destroyed the Death Star, pulled one over on Jabba the Hutt, withstood the Sith lightning of Palpatine himself and restarted the Jedi Order. Who's the more accomplished Jedi then?

    5. Why is it that the old Jedi order forbade marriage while Luke's new Jedi Order allows it and has no consequences from it?

    6. I read somewhere that General Grevious was not Force-Sensitive, yet he was able to use a Lightsaber, why is being Force-Sensitive so important when it comes to lightsabers? In Real-life, if you can lift up a sword, you can use it.

    7. I once thought that Yoda was one of the greatest Jedi Masters ever, but i keep getting information that implies that there are other Jedi better than him (e.g. Mace Windu). So tell me, how great is Master Yoda?

    8. Who was the better couple: Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala or Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade?

    On one side, Anakin and Padme met as children and almost immediately hit it off, which is saying something, since one of them was a slave and the other was the reigning Queen of Naboo at the time. When they became Jedi Padawan and Senator, they had some issues, but they got through them pretty quickly and became husband and wife for many years. However, in the end, Anakin broke his wife's heart, took her life and brought an end to everything she worked so hard to preserve.

    On the other side, when Luke and Mara met, they were enemies, with Mara tracking Luke down with the intent to kill him. However, they grew closer in time and eventually fell in love, and since they were both skilled in the ways of the Force, that was something they both had in common. But in the end, Luke lost his wife to his own nephew and had to go through his life without her

    So who had the better run than: Anakin and Padme or Luke and Mara?
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Nov 29, 2013
  2. SlashMan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    I can take a stab at a few:

    1. The experience skill levels between Sith and Jedi do not correlate. Since there's only two Sith, we can imagine Maul was held to quite the standard. Also, evident in the movie, Jedi were not used to battling enemies also skilled in the Jedi arts. It took all of Qui-Gon's strength just to defend himself from Maul's onslaught. We can see in the movie that Qui-Gon is visibly tired, and simply wasn't able to keep up with his younger adversary.

    4. It's all about perspective. From a Jedi perspective, it was Luke who was able to turn his father and restore the Jedi Order. From the Sith perspective, Vader basically destroyed the Jedi Order. Thought a matter of opinion, I say Luke was up against much greater odds.

    6. Like you said, anyone can use a lightsaber. Grievous was trained as a swordsman by Dooku, but the lack of Force abilities puts him at a disadvantage against Jedi (like against Obi-Wan). Jedi can rely on the Force to react according to instinct, whereas Grievous cannot.
  3. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    1. Simple answer: Qui-Gon is OLD. Not to mention he relies heavily on the Ataru form of combat. By that point in the fight, he was exhausted and left himself open to the much younger Maul.

    2. Dooku surely was not THAT powerful of a Sith Lord, as Anakin was able to singlehandedly defeat him, and even Yoda had him on the ropes. And Vader is the frigging Chosen One, so of course he would be powerful.

    3. They are simply different people. Compare Anakin's reaction to the loss of his mother to Luke's reaction to the loss of his aunt and uncle, who more or less were BOTH of his parents. While Anakin fell into an enraged despair and murdered an entire tribe of sandpeople, Luke's resolve only strengthened and he chose to head to Alderaan.

    4. I abstain

    5. This we can't answer yet, as it relies on post-ROTJ EU. At this point, anything post ROTJ in the EU is considered moot.

    6. Yes, anyone can use a lightsaber, regardless of their Force sensitivity. But intense focus, focus only one trained in the Force could attain, is required for proper elongated dueling.

    7. Considering he came within a fingernail's length of saving the galaxy from the rise of the Empire and even still he persisted to train the offspring of Anakin, I'd say Yoda was a great Jedi.

    8. See number 5. Mara Jade Skywalker, as it stands, does not exist in SW G-canon
  4. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Hi Kabers, welcome to the boards!

    I suppose this is as good a place as any for these questions. The Classic Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy forums have 'question threads' for random questions - this might as well be the one for the Saga forum. Some of the questions you've asked could be worthy of their own threads - or might already be addressed.
    (BTW, the Saga forum isn't the place for discussing the Expanded Universe, here's the current policy: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/star-wars-saga-forum-rules-updated-please-read.50009764/ )
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Nov 29, 2013
  5. Kabers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2013
    That's a valid point, i'll admit, but if it was the case, what about all of the similar moments in the Star Wars saga? Dooku is much older than Obi-Wan and he mopped the floor with him and Skywalker, as well as the much younger Asajj Ventress; Yoda is older than both Dooku and Palpatine rolled in one, yet he had them both on the ropes, with only a last second turn of events saving both of them; Palpatine is older than Maul, yet when they fought in the TV show, Palpatine had Maul and Savage beat, hands down. Suffice it to say, i think the Star wars franchise is trying to prove that Age does not always equate with getting slower and weaker, nor does being younger equate with being stronger.

    Uh, Dooku was able to nonchalantly defeat two very powerful Jedi, practically with one hand behind his back, plus he's revered as a powerful Jedi to boot. The only reason Yoda had him on the ropes was because he was likely already familiar with Dooku's fighting styles

    Point taken

    Why?

    Why? All of it has been confirmed to be canon

    Grevious seems to do well enough without the Force

    But why is Mace Windu considered by some to be better, i ask you?

    See Number 5 response, she has been a confirmed character in the Star Wars Canon and should be treated as such, regardless of he lack of movie appearances.
  6. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    @Kabers - EU isn't relevant to this forum, regardless of its 'canon' status.
  7. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Just a couple of addendums...

    1. The Jedi were unprepared for the Sith, believing them to be extinct, while Maul had trained his whole life to fight Jedi.

    2. The movies don't tell us enough about the history of the Sith Lords to make that claim.

    3. I think there are a lot of circumstances that play into this. There were many psychological factors present in Anakin that weren't there for Luke... such as having been a slave, leaving his mother and developing attachment issues as a result. Knowing how great his power could be and that the Jedi didn't trust that power so he was held back from reaching his full potential. This coupled with his mother's death cemented his desire to gain as much power as possible to prevent such a thing from happening again. Then you have Palpatine who became like a father to him after Qui-Gon's death in ways that Obi-Wan couldn't and subtly pushed Anakin towards the Dark Side for 13 years. All of these things reached a perfect storm at a time when Anakin was vulnerable and the Jedi let him down at just the right moment for Palpatine to convince him along with the rest of the galaxy that they had betrayed everyone. So by the time he revealed himself to Anakin, he had the power Anakin needed and a desperate, confused, disenchanted and hopeless Anakin sold his soul for it
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Nov 26, 2013
  8. SlashMan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    Anakin refers to Obi-Wan as "as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu." From what we know already, and partially inferred by that statement is that Yoda is unparalleled when it comes to Force abilities and knowledge, whereas Mace is a signature swordsman and considered one of the strongest Jedi in the order. I guess it's all a matter of opinion on which attribute is more important. Though judging by Yoda's teachings philosophy in the OT, I believe Yoda has the edge due to the role of the Force.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Because Qui-gon was older than Maul and because Maul was a better fighter. The Jedi haven't fought the Sith in a thousand years and most of their combat was centered around defensive strategies. Whereas Maul trained for years in the art of Lightsaber combat and had intended to kill many Jedi during the Clone Wars and subsequent purge.

    The Sith were born from the Jedi in the beginning. So it isn't that uncommon.

    Nope. Anakin fell to the dark side because he couldn't accept that his "failures" were the result of actions beyond his control, and fought to control the fates of others. He wanted to have this level of control and his darker fears overwhelmed his common sense. Luke resisted because he could see in his father what he saw in himself.

    It doesn't matter, really. Wars do not make a Jedi great.


    During the last Sith war, the Jedi concluded that the best way to prevent future Sith Lords was to take stronger measures against attachments. This included no marriages, no starting of families on their own and accepting new members from a very young age. Luke believed that Obi-wan and Yoda had a reason for letting him and Leia be raised by families and thus he allowed it.

    This is true, but not entirely. See, a Lightsaber can be used for basic combat. But it requires being able to see the future and know when to block against blaster bolts. Something only a Force user can do, with great accuracy because of the Force. Grievous could do it with multiple blades, but note how he fights Obi-wan. Likewise, when fighting a Force user, they can sense the attack before it comes and thus move to block it. In this regard, it is like an untrained swordsman fighting an experienced one.

    He was considered the Grand Master by the time of the Clone Wars. Mace was good in that he could fight Sidious, but not so good, that he was beyond Yoda. In the years before Yoda, there were others with his power and experience.

    Given that Luke and Mara were married a lot longer and never turned on each other, I'd say that they were the better couple.
  10. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    @Kabers You kind of missed the whole gist of what I said when I explained the post Episode VI EU, didn't I? Aside from that, we generally try to avoid EU explanations here.

    Also I abstain from question 5 because let's face it, it's an impossible decision xD. Well, for me at least

    EDIT: Oh, and as for Grievous and the sabers, he had Master Sifo-Dyas's blood transfused with his own, plus he had a lot of cybernetic enhancements obviously meant to bolster his ability. He was trained by Dooku to boot.
    Last edited by Seagoat, Nov 26, 2013
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  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    According to Darth Plagueis that doesn't work, but I guess there's always the placebo effect.
  12. Kabers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2013
    1. Can we at least allow the following aspects of the EU: Mara Jade's existence, her marriage to Luke, their son Ben, Han and Leia's future and the New Jedi order? Everything else, we don't have to discuss.

    2. Since Luke knows who his father is, was Padme's identity ever revealed?

    3. Why was Leia the first of the twins to start a family?

    4. Why is Leia so much more skilled and smarter than Luke, isn't he the older twin?

    5. I think Qui-Gonn made a good point, i mean, if the Jedi council just turned Anakin away, what would become of his Force abilities? If Anakin was as powerful as Qui-Gonn said, leaving him out of the order would have just brought him to the Dark Side faster. Too old or not, if the Jedi council weren't going to allow him to be trained as a Jedi, how were they going to deal with a child born of the Force? It would have been more risky to turn him away and leave him open to becoming a powerful threat than it would be to train him as a Jedi, at least then, he could have learned how keep his power in check.
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  13. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    The way the forum generally works is that EU can be mentioned, especially if it has to do with the development of the saga/ideas around the saga (see the "When did the Sith concept return to Star Wars" thread) but unlike in Lit, it's not considered definitive.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 26, 2013
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  14. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Not in here. Try the Literature forum.
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  15. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6

    1) This particular forum is only for the six films. EU discussion can go elsewhere.

    2) Explained in the Dark Nest trilogy.

    3) Because she was married to Han; Luke didn't marry anyone until ten years later.

    4) What does Luke being 2 minutes older than Leia have to do with anything?

    5) Untrained Force abilities can only take a person so far. The person may have good luck at gambling, be sneaky in a fight, or just have good piloting skills, but without the Jedi training to supplement those abilities, an untrained Force user won't be much of a threat.
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  16. Alienware Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2013
    star 1
    Eh ohh, there seem to be no real swordsmen here, so let me explain :p
    See, if you pick up a conventional sword in real life, it has weight to it. You can swing it 'round, play with and so forth because it has mass. You've probably tried to play with a long stick at one point in your life. Well, do it again and you'll see that all of the movement involved seems to be very natural. You can easily replicate some of the movement from the films. Ignited lightsabers, on the other hand, don't have mass. All of the mass is in the handle. Now pick up something which resembles a lightsaber (about 30 cm / 1 ft in length) and try to play with it like it would be a normal sword and you'll see how it is to swing an ignited lightsaber. If you know what I mean, you'll quickly realize that you would in fact need some special abilities so use a lightsaber;)
    Last edited by Alienware, Nov 27, 2013
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  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    That said, plenty of non-Force using characters do handle lightsabers without injuring themselves. Han, in ESB- though he only uses it as a cutting instrument rather than as a weapon. A lot more characters, in the EU.
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I wouldn't say it was "easy" -- the fight had been going on for quite a while. And, in the end, there's more to being a Jedi Master than one's combat ability. Also, I wouldn't take Maul being a Sith Apprentice to mean anything -- Dooku was also a Sith Apprentice but he had once been a Jedi Master, so I don't necessarily think that Sith Apprentice = Jedi Padawan.

    I would imagine that this is done, in part, for expediency's sake. You basically get a pre-trained apprentice. Especially in Dooku's case, Palpatine needed someone between the time Maul was killed and until Anakin could take over. In Anakin's case, though, Palpatine had been working on him basically since they met when he was nine.

    A large number of factors, I think. Your explanation doesn't seem wrong to me but I don't think it tells the whole story. Anakin and Palpatine had a long (13-year), deep friendship and met when Anakin was 9 years old and extremely impressionable. That gave Palpatine far more opportunity to manipulate him than Luke. Anakin also had a more fragmented childhood -- growing up as a slave than having the abrupt change to the Jedi and the loss of his mother -- whereas Luke basically had a stable life until he turned 19. That and Anakin agreed ideologically with the Empire, which made his turn to the Dark Side more understandable as he agreed with some of Palpatine's motivations. The threat to Padmé's life (given the way he lost his mother) was also a very powerful emotional force for his turn.

    Luke. As a Jedi, Luke is probably the single most accomplished Jedi who ever lived. He brought someone back from the Dark Side through faith and love -- something which was thought impossible. He basically saved the Rebellion (and the rest of the galaxy from the scourge of the Death Star) in ANH.

    Don't know, haven't read EU.

    Han also used a lightsaber in ESB to open the tauntaun's stomach. You don't need to be Force sensitive to use a lightsaber. But I think you're likely to use a limb if you continue to use them for an extended period of time. You probably need exception reflexes which Grevious, as a cyborg, would have.

    He's great, but I'd put both Qui-Gon and Luke as higher. They both taught Yoda important truths about the Force that he didn't know. Qui-Gon found the Chosen One and discovered the Force ghost while Luke brought someone back from the Dark Side. That's not to say that Yoda doesn't have great accomplishments, but I think these two both surpassed him, personally.

    Never read EU, but considering Anakin ends up causing Padmé to die, I'll go with the latter.
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  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    In the ANH novel Ben says of lightsabers "At one time they were widely used. Still are, in certain galactic quarters."

    The EU's take on this:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_rake
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  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Because she and Han were a couple. Luke was alone in the OT and beyond that, he was trying to balance his duty to rebuild the Jedi Order and having a personal life.

    Leia's skills outside of the Force center around the fact that she was raised to fight in the war, when the time came. And she was given training in diplomatic and senatorial affairs. Luke was just a farmer and a pilot.


    The Council only agrees to train Anakin because of what he did during the Battle of Naboo and the confirmation that the mysterious attacker was indeed a Sith Lord. Not being in the Jedi Order would mean that he would turn to the dark side, because he has almost no knowledge of the Force. When one begins to train in the ways of the Force, especially the Jedi arts, that is when it becomes crucial that they are guided properly. Because if they aren't, then they will fall to the dark side. Luke has some anger in him when he meets Yoda, but there isn't any danger in his turning just yet. It is only when his training has begun in earnest, that the danger becomes apparent. That's why Yoda guided him towards the tree cave, so that he could see what was inside himself and why Obi-wan says that confronting Vader at this point, was not the best course of action.

    The only danger with Anakin was that his actions reached the attention of Palpatine and made him aware of the boy's true identity. But at the time, the Jedi didn't know that he was a Sith, much less that the Sith were aware of the prophecy.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    And Yoda is in the minority on the Council that were against it:

    Yoda's gaze was distant when he spoke. "Decided, the Council is," he repeated. "Trained, the boy shall be."
    Obi-Wan felt a surge of relief and joy flood through him, and a grateful smile escaped him.
    Yoda saw the smile. "Pleased, you are? So certain this is right?" The wrinkled face tightened. "Clouded, this boy's future remains, Obi-Wan. A mistake to train him, it is."
    "But the Council—"
    "Yes, decided." The sleepy eyes lifted. "Disagree with that decision, I must."
    There was a long silence as the two faced each other, listening to the sounds of the funeral preparations taking place without. Obi-Wan did not know what to say. Clearly the Council had decided against the advice of Yoda. That in itself was unusual. That the Jedi Master chose to make a point of it here emphasized the extent of his concerns about Anakin Skywalker.
    Obi-Wan spoke carefully. "I will take the boy as my Padawan, Master. I will train him in the best way I can. But I will bear in mind what you have told me here. I will go carefully. I will heed your warnings. I will keep close watch over his progress."
    Yoda studied him a moment, then nodded. "Your promise, then, remember well, young Jedi," he said softly. "Sufficient, it is, if you do."
    Obi-Wan bowed in acknowledgement. "I will remember."
    Together, they went out into a blaze of light.
  22. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    In regards to why Maul beat Qui-Gon, remember that duels aren't a game where you just compare the strength values of the two combatants and declare a winner. Lots of factors go into the outcomes of a duel. Fatigue, environment, tactics, athleticism and luck are all important. A duelist can win a hundred duels and lose in his 101st.
  23. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    True. I think the novelization of Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith explains that since the Sith's apparent 'extinction' the Jedi altered their fighting style because none of their enemies were force-users. On the other hand Darth Maul was trained in the knowledge that he would be facing Jedi, so he had a clear advantage in the duel with Qui-Gon.
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  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Exactly. Most enemies used blasters, vibro axes, vibro knives and force pikes. Weapons that a Jedi can take out with their Lightsaber. During his time in the Jedi Order, Dooku had opted to train using a combat style that hadn't been used in some time which is why he had an advantage against Obi-wan, Anakin and Yoda. As well as those who had crossed paths with him in the cartoon and in the EU. Anakin and Obi-wan had to step up their game which is what they did during the Clone Wars and why they were confident that they could take him that last time. Anakin only manages it because he loses control and taps into the dark side, which improves his skills and his connection to the Force is greater. Thus he could maneuver himself into position where he was able to slice his hands off.
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  25. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Explains why nobody was utterly shocked and flabbergasted when Kenobi sliced off the guy's arm with a lightsaber in the Tatooine cantina.