Discussion in 'Literature' started by GA_Pellaeon, Sep 24, 2001.
Argh C3-words... I'm outta this, it's sick !
Chissdude, could Corran cut Chiss?
what about calamari. . .
oh blasterbolts we're not playing this game anymore.
Anyone that has any doubts about Pealeon's tactical skill should simply read the last chapter of Spectar of the Past.
Plus he has been an imperial officer for over 50 years. He may not be a Grand Admiral, but he is the Supreme Commander and has gained the right to wear the uniform of a Grand Admiral.
No, he has not.
One becomes a grand admiral solely through creation as such by HIM The Emperor himself. HIM The Emperor and solely HIM The Emperor had the authority and the ability to do so.
If HIM The Emperor did not create Gilad Pellaeon a grand admiral, he is not, was not, and sha'n't become a grand admiral.
Being supreme commander does not grant one the right to wear the uniform of a superior officer.
The Chief of Naval Operations is not permitted to wear the rank insignia of an Admiral of the Navy, because the CNO is not an Admiral of the Navy.
The Chief of Staff of the Army is not permitted to wear the rank insignia of a General of the Armies, becuase the Chief of Staff of the Army is not a General of the Armies.
Fleet Admiral Pellaeon is only legally able to wear the uniform and insignia of a fleet admiral, the rank he holds. If he is permitted any further insignia as supreme commander, that is acceptable.
But he is not a grand admiral, and may not wear the uniform and insignia thereof. To do so is a mark of tremendous pretense and disregard of etiquette and protocol on his part.
As for his tenure... what of it? He has been in the Navy for over fifty years... and spent only a decade or so as a commanding officer. His career is a joke. Imperial officer whose entire lives span less than half his service record outranked and outclassed him. He was the executive officer of a battleship, even after 50 years of service 'neath his belt.
The fact that it took so long for him to become a post captain is a distinct mark against him, rather than demonstrative of his prowess.
His skill as a tactician? Unremarkable. He's not demonstrated anything even remotely suggesting outstanding skill. You refer to the end of Specter of the Past---entirely unimpressive. He defeated a band of pirates with obsolete equipment by using a top of the line fast battleship. This is not impressive.
Simply put, Admiral Pellaeon is an example of an officer whose sole saving grace is that he's reliable. Not brilliant, not masterful, not extraordinary---reliable. He is the Winfield Scott of the Imperial Navy.
Ackbar learned a lot about tactics from when he was Moff tarkin's slave, so being in the presence of a genious can have some rub off. Pellaeon was in thrawn's presence, so i'm sure at least a few tricks rubbed off on him. He is capable, but definitely not the best in the galaxy.
Read my post carefully, I never said he was a Grand Admiral, I said he was the Supreme Commander.
At one time I remember Thrawn had worn the white uniform when he wasn't a grand admiral, he did it because of his victorys in the outer rim, he was given the rank or "warlord" and given the right to wear the uniform of a Grand Admiral.
Pealeon graduated very highly in his class at the academy, had a early victory in a bad situation, rose through ranks farely quickly, and hasn't been promoted much after that because he was better at being the XO of a bridge, when all those higher than his rank died or left he became in charge of the Imperial navy.
Plus if Pealeon doesn't have the right to wear the uniform then who does?
Pellaeon is NOT a Grand Admiral, as has been pointed out, mainly because there is no one left to MAKE him a Grand Admiral. However, he IS the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet.
And as for tactics, I would gladly count Pellaeon on my "team". To say he has learned nothing from Thrawn is ludicrous. Just examine his actions in the HoT duology.
Lastly, he is linked with Admiral Kre'fey who INSISTS on Pellaeon being second in command of the combined fleets in Ruin
I think Pellaeon is a Grand Admiral. After the Emperor died (whichever time, take your pick) the reigns of the Empire past the the Council of Moffs (or whatever they're called) on Bastion. As the ruling entity of the Empire, I say they have the right to confer upon Pellaeon any rank they want. He may not be a Grand Admiral in the same sense as Thrawn, but he can still be called a Grand Admiral.
This is my own opinion however and I have been proven wrong before.
If you guys want a good bio on Pelaeon, then go to http://fan.starwars.com.AdmThrawn/pellaeon.html
You know, grand moffs premoting a captain to a rank of grand admiral.
Would be like a captain premoting someone else to general. things just don't work that way. Lesser ranks can't put someone else at a rank higher than themselves.
Ok, maybe he wasn't a Grend Admiral, but he was a Perfectly Fine and Dandy Admiral.
I'll throw my opinion into this one...
I've been a fan of Pellaeon since I read HttE for the first time. When I listened the audio book, I REALLY disliked the way his voice was portrayed... Too shrill and fast, to my opinion.
But anyway... When with Thrawn, Pellaeon shows eagerness to learn, and ability to do so. (Eager fools... Nothing worse than that) This ability to learn, it is crucial to his character. During his career in the books, he is portrayed as a learning character; he isn't all locked up, like Daala, but rather more flexible.
I agree on the point of him being superb adminstrator; It has to have been a Hell to keep the Empire even marginally together during the years after Thrawn.
I really, really like Pellaeon, and he is my favourite Imp military guy... Thrawn and Admiral Rogriss as runner-ups. Pellaeon is a grand man by his own right, not just as the shadow of Thrawn. I hope that He will be remembered so.
(Sith Chick, WEBer, Dark Side Force user-wannabe....)
To a certain extent, i agree with the fact that Pellaeon possibly is undeserving of the Grand Admiral title. On that note, it is has not been proven that he ISN'T a Grand Admiral. It says in SotP that he wears the white Admirals uniform, but never does it clarify whether or not he is/isn't one. I personaly consider it a possibility, and would like to believe he is a Grand Admiral (not because he was as capable of his predecessors of the same title, but because he is the greatest tactician the fleet has - with potential to become greater) so i will say that he is. As for comments suggesting he can't be because the emperor didn't say so, i disagree. The Emperor is dead (I know, shocking news huh?), but the potential to reach certain ranks didn't die with him. Want to critcise characters about self promotion, take a look at the self proclaimed Emperor. A military is going to insist on maintaining the chain of command, and with rank precedents like Grand Admiral, it is only sensible to assume the brightest and most capable leaders assuming those ranks. The moffs do have the right to grant those titles, because they are the government of the NEW EMPIRE.
Think about it.
"Want to critcise characters about self promotion, take a look at the self proclaimed Emperor."
Darn fine point you have there!
I'd also like to apologise to Zaarin. My comment was overly sarcastic and uncalled for. So... Sorry.
"Want to critcise characters about self promotion, take a look at the self proclaimed Emperor."
Actually that is quite the normal thing for Imperial dictatorships. Your not suggesting pelleon should declare himself the emperor?
No, i'm not suggesting Pellaeon should declare himself emperor. Even Pellaeon would know that. I was merely pointing out what you were saying, that it's standard Imperial practice to promote ones self BEFORE they prove they can hold the rank.
Pellaeon as Emperor = Bad idea.
I just wnated to point out the mistake in Valiento assumption, he was in a book where he was a Vice Admiral, then in a later book he became an Admiral, cuz Daala gave her rank over to him, then later the Moffs decided to make him the Supreme Commander.
Moffs are below admiral's in ranks, actually.
I don't think there's a problem with someone of a higher rank premoting someone to ranks below theres, maybe it's allowable for same rank to make someone else the same rank. But I don't really know how the Military system works. All I do know is a lower level can't premote one to higher than themselves.
No it's standard imperial practice for a person to declare himself an emperor. But Not for the servants to declare themselves other premotions. Once the leader get's controle, then he decides the military. For someone to self-premote themselves otherwise, is to be saying they have the powers of an emperor, or dictator.
It's been mentioned somewhere as I remember in the EU, that thrawn has had two premotions to GA, one in public, and one privatly, at two different times in his career.
[blockquote]Ackbar learned a lot about tactics from when he was Moff tarkin's slave, so being in the presence of a genious can have some rub off. Pellaeon was in thrawn's presence, so i'm sure at least a few tricks rubbed off on him. He is capable, but definitely not the best in the galaxy.[/blockquote]
Admiral Ackbar learned a great deal about Imperial tactics in particular, not about tactics in general. At any rate, Wilhuff Grand Moff Tarkin was not a tactical genius, but a strategic and logistic mastermind.
Captain PellÃ¦on was in the presence of a tactical genius, and was already familiar with Imperial tactics. There was nothing for him to learn except that certain species cannot competently respond to a modified Marg Sabl manoeuvre, unless you wish to contend that Old Fuss and Failure was so grossly incompetent as to be unfamiliar with standard Imperial tactics in general.
[blockquote]At one time I remember Thrawn had worn the white uniform when he wasn't a grand admiral, he did it because of his victorys in the outer rim, he was given the rank or "warlord" and given the right to wear the uniform of a Grand Admiral.[/blockquote]
Vice-Admiral Thrawn was portrayed as wearing the white uniform and epaulets because LucasArts recycled the same image to represent him in all his appearances. This is no more accurate than the deck officer whose rank insigne shows him to be a rear admiral.
There is no such thing as being given the right to wear the uniform of a superior officer. That is an absolutely absurd concept. To do so entirely defeats the purpose of having distinct uniforms for superior officers. If a colonel who performs well is granted permission to wear the uniform and insignia of a lieutenant general, then what is the point of having separate uniforms and insignia for a lieutenant general, if one need not be a lieutenant general to wear them?
The uniform and insignia of a grand admiral were distinctive precisely to demonstrate that they were the Ã©lite, the crÃ¨me de la crÃ¨me of the Imperial Navy. The Essential Chronology states that grand admirals were ?easily recognizable by their stark white uniforms and braided gold epaulets.? This duty uniform is by necessity restricted solely to the grand admirals.
[blockquote]Pealeon graduated very highly in his class at the academy, had a early victory in a bad situation, rose through ranks farely quickly, and hasn't been promoted much after that because he was better at being the XO of a bridge, when all those higher than his rank died or left he became in charge of the Imperial navy.[/blockquote]
Gilad PellÃ¦on did not rise through the ranks quickly, in that he was not a post captain after some fifty years of Naval service. In fact, his ascent was painstakingly and ridiculously slow. The fact that he failed to have his own command after so long is demonstrative of the fact that Gilad PellÃ¦on is incompetent to serve as a commanding officer, let alone a flag officer.
[blockquote]Plus if Pealeon doesn't have the right to wear the uniform then who does?[/blockquote]
Grand Admirals Zaarin, Makati, Rufaan Tigellinus (for a time), Grant, Batch, Pitta, Grunger, Il-Raz, Syn, Takel, and Thrawn had the right to wear the uniform of a grand admiral because they were grand admirals, so created by HIM The Emperor.
[blockquote]After the Emperor died (whichever time, take your pick) the reigns of the Empire past the the Council of Moffs (or whatever they're called) on Bastion. As the ruling entity of the Empire, I say they have the right to confer upon Pellaeon any rank they want. He may not be a Grand Admiral in the same sense as Thrawn, but he can still be called a Grand Admiral.[/blockquote]
The problem with this line of thought is that the Mofference lacks sufficient seniority to promote Admiral PellÃ¦on to the exalted rank of grand admiral. Grand admiral is a rank superior to that of grand moff, itself superior to that of moff. A committee of lieutenant colonels mayn?t promote a captain to major general.
[blockquote]On that note, it
I disagree. In VotF, it clearly suggests that the Moffs hold the political power of the NEW EMPIRE (it is a new empire, in the sense that the government structure is different, yet upholds the ideals of the New Order). Pellaeon holds the Military power. Dialogue between himself and Disra suggest that they are almost on par in terms of authority.
Secondly, we are not talking about the french. It has been clearly and repeatedly stated that Palpatine crowned HIMSELF Emperor. Granted, the new movies may give us a new angle on this, however until they do, we must use what material we have, which states what i just mentioned. Anyhow, by your logic, the senate, who were a group of low ranking buracrats, would have no right to escalate and individual to power higher than themselves.
Look, i agree that Pellaeon is not a GA of Palpatines order, and never could be (can anyone tell me why ). However, he quite well could be a GA of the IR. The moffs needn't have promoted him at all, his officers below him, as well as the moffs, could have all agreed that title should be inferred upon him.
If you want to argue that these promotions or ranks cannot be held because Palpy fell down a hole, then the empire would die out of lack of leadership. First you would lose your GA's, then your admirals, then Commanders, Generals, Captains, etc until all you had were a bunch of Ensigns tromping around the galaxy spouting New Order propaganda, because "no body" has the right to promote another to a higher level.
Think about it.
The Senate of the Galactic Republic is the united states of the galaxy in congress assembled. The Senate represents the collective sovereign power of the galaxy. The states of the Republic make known their sovereign will through the Senate. It collectively holds imperium.
Because of this supreme nature, the Senate is perfectly capable of acting as a fons honorum, and bestowing upon an individual imperial dignity. The Senate is fully legally able to confer imperium maius upon an individual, to vest the government of the Galactic Republic in an emperor.
This is most different from a military organisation.
A military organisation is not sovereign, and is answerable to a superior authority. A military organisation is heirarchical in nature, and one cannot ascend except through the permission of those who have ascended before one.
The moffs are not sovereigns. They do not have sovereign authority. They are military magistrates, and are bound by military rules.
Among those rules is that an officer mayn't promote another to a rank equal or superior to the rank he or she, the promoting officer, holds.
A moff is inferior to a grand moff, who is inferior to a supreme moff, who is inferior to a grand admiral.
No moff or group of moffs may promote any person to the rank of moff or any higher rank, because no moff or group of moffs has the authority to do that.
Likewise, no number of inferior officers may promote a superior officer. Only superior officers may promote inferior officers, and only HIM The Emperor can create grand admirals.