Grand Admiral Pellaeon

Look, lets just agree to disagree, as you obviously are unwilling to acknowledge any other point of view other than your own.

 

An admission of defeat.

Cling to your ignorant misunderstanding of military protocol and etiquette. It does not change in the slightest the simple facts that (a.) Old Fuss and Failure is not a grand admiral; and (b.) Old Fuss and Failure has no right to wear a grand admiral's uniform.

If someone told you that two plus two equals five, and you denied it, does that mean that you should just agree to disagree?

 

Well I've heard a lot from people and I can say this much. Pellaeon is not a Grand Admiral, but is the Suprmeme Commander. I'm GUESSING that he is wearing a uniform as a symbol because Grand Admirals were the guys who controlled the imperial navy.

I only have one source of information and that is at the Hand of Thrawn site. His bio in that site said he graduated 3rd in his class, won a battle when he was in a convoy when he was a mere ensign, rose through the ranks on the bridge of Chimaera until he had second in command, took command when his commanding officer died at Endor, lead an imperial retreat from Endor, has been doing whatever he can until he met up with Thrawn, became the second in command because Thrawn was there, lead the retreat of Bilbriingi, was promoted to Vice Admiral, temporarily lost the Chimaera and commanded a VSD, joined the fleet of Admiral Daala, rescued Admiral Daalas escape pod when her SSD was lost to the gas giant Yavin, Daala then resigns her rank over to Pellaeon, Pellaeon then assumes the command of the imperial fleet (though I hate comparing to the real world ill just say this, if there is nobody higher than your rank, then promotion through the lower ranks to the higher ranks is neccessary), the moffs (the highest ruling political entity they have left) make Pellaeon a Supreme Commander officialy.

You have to realize that the empires highest politicians and military leaders were dead or resigned. Dalla gave her rank to Pellaeon making him the highest ranking officer, the moffs simply made it official. You also have to realize that until I'm given another bio or any other sources, this is the only source I have. So give me something more tangible if you want to argue,
don't just argue for the sake of arguing. If you want to look at the bio for yourselves then go the site that I had put in one of my previous posts on this thread.

Basically what I'm trying to say is to jsut give me another source, ANY SOURCE, or don't argue to me directly because I'll just ignore you. If you have no source then give me the time period if you don't even have that then all I can assume is that you are making things up.

 

Just a thought... This is SO politics... This conversation could (Except for the book references, of course) take part in the GFFA... Don'cha think? I mean, we sound like a bunch of NR lobbyists with nothing better to do...

Ara
(SC, SWC, WEBer, ex-AFWer, multiple-wannabe)

 

Maybe they abolished the old rank of "Grand Admiral" which would outrank a Grand Moff (allegedly) and then immediately created a new rank of "Grand Admiral" which was subordinate...
Or even simpler they abolished or rendered inactive all ranks above Pellaeons (since he is the Supreme Commander of Imperial Military Forces so by definition he cannot be outranked) and then changed the uniform worn by people of that rank.

I thought it said somewhere that Pellaeon was not a Grand Admiral but as a mark of their respect they had granted him permission to wear that uniform, as as the supreme authority within the much reduced Empire the council of Moffs have full authority over actions within that sphere (though NJO shows Pellaeon can overrule them on military matters).

Genius can rub off to a certain extent.
Dr. Watson learned a lot from Sherlock Holmes, managing on occasion to surprise Holmes (though that could have been simply Sherlock Holmes being arrogant in underestimating his friend).
A closer analogy would be Nelsons "Band of Brothers" who learned significantly from their time under his command about the use of more aggressive and innovative tactics to enable their ships to destroy the enemy.

Of course there was only one Sherlock Holmes, one Nelson, and thus far one Thrawn so Pellaeon is not a genius - but he is a compotent officer (which from the trilogy is unusual for Imperials) who is well balanced (no blind-spots, which from the novels is unusual for Imperials) and who has learend from one of the best teachers possible.

 

Not to mention that Pellaeon weas C-in-C at Ithoir. Granted the planet was destroyed..but the Vong were forced to retreat and lost thousands of soliders and more than a few ships. I'd call that a victory, and the first real one we've seen for the NR/Impwerial Remnant to date. A major commander was killed, as was his second-in-command, etc...

 

It is not an admission of defeat, though i'm sure you'll take it that way anyway, so go ahead, my prides not at stake (though you seem to hang alot of yours on it). I would like to say however, that this topic is open to interpretation. You are working with your own opinion as much as i am. "2 + 2 = 5" simply proves that the problem lies not in my reasoning, but in your inability to see anothers point of view. After reading my other associates posts, i am convinced that Pellaeon is not a GA (by the way, thanks all for clearing that up). However i still disagree that the power to elevate someone to a certain command did not die with that shriveled up old man. Rest assured, that's my perogative.
Just another thing to note III_Vir_RPC, in the words of Luke Skywalker "Your overconfidence is your weaknes...".

 

In the Hand of Thrawn duology, when Pellaeon is proposing a peace treaty with the New Republic, there is a scene (I am at work and don't have the books with me to find the exact page) early in SotP where he is discussing the issue with one of the generals. He points out that as Supreme Commander, the decision is his. The Moffs may be the ones who have to agree politically but they do not have authority over Pellaeon to overrule his actions. They can make it hard for him but they do not control him.

So ... it is not the Moffs who made Pellaeon the Grand Admiral (if he is one) but by dint of the fact that he is the last surviving leader from the Empire's days.

 

The ability to create grand admirals was not solely limited to Palpatine I., but to the person of the emperor. Iff Palpatine I. had a legitimate successor as emperor, that successor would have the power to create grand admirals.

But Palpatine I. does not have a legitimate successor. Therefore, until and unless the Imperial Senate transfers the rights of succession from House Palpatine to another house, the ability to create grand admirals is inert.

 

Unless of course Pelleon boy, is taking on an Imperial Position of Imperial dictatorship, minus the term of emperor. Then the guy can do what ever he wants. But he would be an emperial dictator in all but name. You aren't suggesting that pelleon is doing that are you, that fanatical about him?

 

How do you say weenie in Latin?

 

I'd tell you, RingoJUna, but I only started Latin today. I must say on the subject of Pellaeon being a de facto Emperor in all but name... Remember this lady called Ysanne Isard? She was the Director of the Imperial Intelligence, and syill held all the reins in military, Intelligence and the political arena. I'm not sure how to relate it to the topic, but I am saying that there are a few similarities.

Ara
(A person who is fanatical SW fan enough to dye her hair look like ISard's, has severe trouble with Japanese language and who sniffles all the time at the moment)

 

Isard made everything to became Empress. She even became one, but she never said it openly, as Palpatine did.

 

About Pellaeon's right to claim...

Point- Only HIM had the right to appoint Grand Admirals.

Point- HIM is floating atoms somewhere in the Byss system

Point- The fleet follows Pellaeon.

Point- Most of the Moffs will take his lead (esp after the Hand of Thrawn Conspiracy)

And in conclusion- If Pellaeon wants to be a Grand Admiral he damn well is a Grand Admiral. If he doesn't then fine. It doesn't matter what a long dead tyrant would have said. Mao Zedong would have disapproved of capitalism in China but that doesn't seem to be stopping them.

Live in the present, not the past.

 

Hum... (Ham Hom Hem Hym) HIM did not die on Byss. He died on Onderon.

 

What I forgot to say was that Isard WANTED to get there. Pellaeon on the other hand....

Aldaric_Brandl is right. Pellaeon certainly HAS the right to do whatever he deems necessary.

Ara
(Still sniffly and in search of tissues)

 

Pellaeon has a dictatorship sorta like Il Duce before the war.

 

all i will say is that if a had a navy i would put Pellaeon as my Grand Admiral.. he has the know how and goosh darn it people like him....

 

Whoops...my mistake. Sorry.

A moot point in any case.

Citing the lack of Imperial appointment for Pellaeon not having the right to take the rank of Grand Admiral is like saying that e.g. Tibet SHOULD belong to China since the Yuan Emperors conquered it and did not withdraw their troops. (This is, by the way, the pretext under which China occupies Tibet)

If I may say so, the Remnant isn't any more Imperial than the Byzantine Empire was Roman (I did a thread on this way back when). Pellaeon is the de facto leader of an entirely new regime; not an Imperial governent but rather a military junta. As the head of the political entity that is the Remnant, he has as much authority to award anyone (including himself) any rank etc as any other sovereign head of state.

Any quibbling over the protocols and rank system of a regime that no longer exists is irrelevant.

So there.

Nyah-nyah

 

"Any quibbling over the protocols and rank system of a regime that no longer exists is irrelevant."


Yay!!! Woooh!!!!


Sorry, I just thought that was a great point. It kinda sums up how I feel as well

 

"Any quibbling over the protocols and rank system of a regime that no longer exists is irrelevant."

Agree. Totally.

And I still say that most of this discussion could have taken place in GFFA. We are just like some junior officials or something squabbling over Imp politics....

Ara
(Isard-wannabe, drow-wannabe, assassin-wannabe...)

 

III_Vir_RPC...
"The problem with this line of thought is that the Mofference lacks sufficient seniority to promote Admiral Pellæon to the exalted rank of grand admiral. Grand admiral is a rank superior to that of grand moff..."

The only flaw thus far in a masterful attack of Pellaeon's status as GA is your perception of the "Grand" positions.

Grand Moffs are NOT subservient to Grand Admirals. The title of Grand Admiral is not a rank within the Imperial Military structure. It is an appointed position, able to be filled by anyone the Emperor deemed fit. It is a position created by a power superior to Imperial Military High Command and has the same authority as the collective IMHC has.

Between Grand Moff and Grand Admiral positions, both are equal and incomparable. Each one answerable solely to Emperor Palpatine. Each is responsible to one individual entity - the leader of the Empire. A Grand Admiral can no more order around a Grand Moff than a Grand Moff can order a Grand Admiral - unless backed by the Emperor to do so.

The Chain of Command for all three is thus...

1. Cos
2. Grand Moff - Grand Admiral - Imperial Military High Command - Other (other agents given temp or permament authority by Palpatine over the Empire)

For example, uf Palpatine orders his Grand Admirals to accept orders from his personal gardener, then that Grand Admiral must accept order's from Palpatine's personal gardener. There is no default chain-of-command that states Grand Admirals get the seniority in the Grand Admiral-Grand Moff working relationship.

 

"As the head of the political entity that is the Remnant, he has as much authority to award anyone (including himself) any rank etc as any other sovereign head of state."

Yes, as an Imperial Dictator, that he is he can do what ever chooses fit. Just like any Imperial dictator of the last 2 centuries, .

 

I think the problem comes ghengis from the fact that the zahn books, say grand admirals are the highest rank of the Navy.

Yet, we learn that there is at least one grand general in force commander(If you look at the credits.) which is highest army positition.

In in Galaxy guide 1, we learn about a position that outranks the grand moffs, that of a supreme moff, unknown if any was ever created.

Yes, and no, grand moffs are both within, and without the Military army structure, while it can be achieved by working up the army premotions, it also can be given to you by HIM, in which case it's a back door into the army command bypassing any military training and in which case has created some rather incompetant leadership in the army, ala disra, . And like you said, a grand moff only answers to the emperor himself, not advisors or ministers. But this doesn't stop the fact that higher positions in the army could command the lower positions, since it's standard military precedure, and they aren't advisors or ministers, but Army Positions greater than that of Grand Moff.

Now, commanding other deparments, such as navy commanding the army, is a bit unnatural I think. But I guess in the GFFA it can happen. AKA, the False GA thrawn, to keep up appearances, seemingly having more controle power over moff disra(even though it was just a ruse to get disra more power, and flim was just the puppet.).

As for HIM's ability to give out positions he deemed fit? He was highest rank of the Military as the Militarist dictatorship that he was, and he wore his uniform under his robes. As the highest military position in a military dictatorship, he had the right to make premotions that he deemed fit.

 

If I may say so, the Remnant isn't any more Imperial than the Byzantine Empire was Roman (I did a thread on this way back when).

You may say so, but you should be wrong if you were to do so. The Roman Empire centred at Constantinopolis was always viewed as the Roman Empire by the West, and the East. It was very much Roman, far more so than the other Roman empire, the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.

In fact, Constantinopolis' territories were called "Rum" by the Turks, and "Romania" by the West---the so-called Latin emperors of Constantinopolis were actually titled imperatores Romaniae, emperors of Romania.

The Palaeologus dynasty ruled exactly the same state as had the sons of Constantinus, and the successors of Theodosius. The so-called Byzantine Empire was never known as that---it was always Roman, and its people always Romans.

Pellaeon is the de facto leader of an entirely new regime; not an Imperial governent but rather a military junta. As the head of the political entity that is the Remnant, he has as much authority to award anyone (including himself) any rank etc as any other sovereign head of state.

Old Fuss and Failure would have those prerogatives... if he were chief of state. He is not. Nor is he head of government. Fleet Admiral Pellaeon is the supreme commander, which means that he is the executive administrator of military affairs. He does not govern the Imperial Remnant, and has no prerogatives inherent to the station of chief of a sovereign state.

There is, in fact, no chief of state or head of government of the Imperial Remnant. The seniormost governmental body is the Mofference, and, as Moffs have never had sovereign power, the Mofference lacks sovereign power. The Imperial Remnant is a confederation of quasistates, not an actual sovereign state itself.

Furthermore, the Imperial Remnant clearly considers itself the same entity founded by HIM The Emperor in 1 ED, and not a new state. It follows the same rules as did the Empire, before the Empire collapsed and dissolved in 27 ED.

In reference to the station of grand admirals in relation to grand moffs....

The rank of grand admiral is indeed the superlative rank of the Imperial Navy. By definition, then, a grand admiral thoroughly outranks any other officer, be they Army, Naval, Marine or Starfighter Command.

Grand moffs and moffs are military officers with gubernatorial prerogatives. Just as a moff outranks a high admiral, a grand moff outranks a moff. The theoretical rank of supreme moff is superior to that of grand moff.

If a grand moff is a military officer, and indeed he or she is, then he or she is outranked by a grand admiral, who is a superlative officer.

It is for this reason that Grand Admiral Thrawn was able to legally usurp command of the Empire from the moffs and patricians after being appointed supreme commander---he outranked all of them, and was able to countermand and supersede their authority, anyway.