Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Iron_lord, Mar 7, 2014.
Wow, Anakin, you are rather extreme.
More of a realist, but I especially didn't like his character in Rogue Planet. I know that is for another discussion, but it taints my vision of the character.
There are two sides of every story... I'd like to see the Empire's point of view. We're basically forced to accept the Rebel's have the supposed moral-high ground. Wars are never so polarized in the faction's moral views.
I am a realist as well, Anakin.
I'm with you, Drenn.
I can't help but be somewhat amused that the very title of this thread asks how well fleshed out Tarkin is in ANH and then, in your very first reply to your own thread, you bring in the EU.
It's your thread so you can certainly talk about whatever you want, but in the future might I suggest that you make the title "How well fleshed out a character is he in ANH and/or the EU?" I actually got my hopes up that you would be interested in talking about, ya know, the actual movies (for a change). Well, fool me once....
Beezer - drop the personal remarks. The constant swiping at any mention of the EU is getting tiresome, as well.
The Rebels didn't blow up entire inhabited planets. This makes the Rebels infinitely better than the Empire by pretty much any metric except one defined by pure evil.
I mean, really, unless you're willing to argue that the Rebels built and used a Death Star at some point off-screen, there's no decent way to claim that the Rebels lacked the moral high ground.
What if Alderaan was housing a fleet of world-destroyers that would kill trillions? I'm saying there's no definitive proof of the Empire being evil. There motives are foggy at best.
You're right, Drenn, the Empire's motives were very foggy. I think deliberately so. We're told to root for the Rebels and most do. It rather boggles me especially since given on screen evidence there is very little difference between the sides. As I have said, scaling doesn't work for me. Tarkin is no worse as a character than Luke. Both are murders.
It's true, once you think about it. The Death Star employed how many in crew? 10,000? 100,000? All as vaporized as the Alderaanians.
And the tack that "History is written by the victors" is most definitely true. I'm seeing the antithesis of the Empire and the Rebel Alliance in the American Civil War, sort of. The Confederacy broke away because their rights as States were being infringed upon by the Union government. What we were told, about slave states and free states, was less an issue than it's made out to be today.
We're not talking about the Empire as a whole though - we're talking about Tarkin specifically.
The Empire's motives are not foggy at all. The DS is a weapon of Terror, pure and simple. The message is also very simple. "Do as we say or we'll blow up your planet." The Empire has now done away with any pretense of democracy or freedom. Now the Emperor rules by force and fear and the regional leaders have direct control over their territories.
Tarkin destroys Alderaan as an Object Lesson. This is to show the Galaxy what they can and are willing to do. The message is "This is what happened to Aalderaan, unless you want to die as well, keep quiet and do as you are told, slave!"
Also Luke and Tarkin can't be compared. Tarkin was under no threat from Alderaan, he had no orders to destroy Alderaan and he did not need to.
Blowing up an un-inhabited world would send the same message of what the DS can do. But he choose to murder billions just as an object lesson.
Luke destroys the DS, which is attacking the rebel base. The people of Alderaan were killed because they happened to live there. While there are probably prisoners on the DS, the large majority of people are those that have choosen to serve the empire. They all know what the DS does and what purpose it serves. Yet they are there.
The onscreen evidence paints a totally different picture of the Empire and the Rebels. The Empire commits genocide and enjoys it, it does not hesitate in killing the innocent to get what it wants or silencing anyone that gets in the way.
Bye for now.
An interesting comparison of Vader & Tarkin's characters, from way back in February 1978 (Star Wars Poster Monthly):
STAR WARS: OFFICIAL POSTER MONTHLY #5: Published February 1978 by Galaxy Publications. Text writers Michael Marten, Jon Trux, John May.
(scroll to the right)
Tarkin and vader make out to be quite the devilish duo in ANH. Does that mean that I think hes a fleshed out character ??? nah... not realy
Technically it was the other way round, he sentenced her, told her about it - then threatened her home planet before destroying it.
When he runs a hand over her face, smiling, and saying "You don't know how hard I found it signing the order to terminate your life" - he seems downright creepy.
The difference is that the Empire destroyed an entire planet...
It's your opinion of course, but I have to disagree that Tarkin was not a villain.
What if Mon Mothma secretly ran a sex slavery ring on the side?
You're right, these are all questions that must be asked and taken into account when determining whether the planet-destroying regime has the moral high ground over their non-planet-destroying opposition.
The thousands who died in the Death Star were all knowingly working on a military installation designed to destroy entire freaking planets, and was in fact in the process of doing so when it was destroyed in self-defense. I highly doubt every single inhabitant, or even the majority of inhabitants, of Alderaan--men, women, children, and dogs--were all card-carrying, militarized agents of the Rebel Alliance. This is an extremely vacuous argument.
Tarkin literally committed genocide, on a scale Adolf Hitler could only dream of. I can't even think of a single instance of Luke committing murder in the films.
I wish we could have seen more of Tarkin, because of his dark ways. In my opinion, he was indeed a villain, and one that anybody had better think twice before crossing.
To each their own but Luke destroyed the DS1 thus committing mass murder as well and everyone can justify as they like but all scaling is to me is a justification tactic thus I'm done here.
villain yes but not evil
I guess you're done arguing, and that's fine, but I'd just like to say that I am completely unable to fathom the line of reasoning that equates A) someone destroying a planet full of civilians as a show of force, with B) a military force destroying an opposing military force's planet-destroying superweapon as that superweapon is in the process of destroying a planet. I absolutely cannot fathom it.
I guess maybe if you abide by a philosophy that holds that the taking of all life is equally evil, whatever the reason, be it self-defense from rape or murder or mass murder--but at the same time you seem to be implying that Tarkin is not evil, so your argument is incoherent by any standard.
What exactly is being meant by "scaling"?
The way I see it - even if Alderaan had a population of a few thousand and the Death Star had a population of a few billion - Tarkin would still be the one in the wrong - because he is the aggressor.
And because it would unreasonable to assume that the majority of Alderaan's inhabitants were active Rebels who posed an imminent threat, existential or otherwise, to the Empire--while at the same time, it would be unreasonable to assume that any of the inhabitants of the Death Star were unaware of the station's purpose and recent activities. As to any innocent prisoners who happened to be on the Death Star--it's a tragedy that their lives had to be sacrificed, but if you want to blame anyone, blame the people who decided to imprison them in a roving battle station taking part in planet-destroying and combat operations.
Dude, with all due respect, there's quite a difference between blowing up the Death Star and risk killing a whole bunch of innocent janitors whose only crime was to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, and deliberately aiming your planet-destroying weapon at a non-hostile planet and coolly giving the order to have it obliterated.
Luke had no choice but to destroy the Death Star, because had he not done so, it's good-bye Rebel Alliance. Tarkin, however, made the conscious choice to kill billions.
Tarkin was a well written and well acted one-dimensional villain. But I don't know if I would regard him as "fully fleshed".