CT Grand Moff Tarkin Out Ranks Vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Oct 14, 2013.

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  1. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    There's still an element of "in a normal military, those officers would be arrested and sent to the brig for court martial, not summarily executed".
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  2. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Well, yes. In most real world militaries, a superior officer just can't shoot a subordinate for a disappointing performance.

    My point is that - as far as I can tell - Vader only really treated his subordinates with such ruthlessness, while people like Tagge, Motti, Tarkin, etc. I don't think really fell under Vader's authority and so we see the relationship between these characters as quite different than that between characters like Needa, Veers, Piett, Ozzel and Vader.

    I mean, I can't imagine that any of the latter would EVER talk back to Vader like Motti did and survive. Motti merely was given a demonstration of the power of the Force to make a point and shut him up. Motti and Vader treated each other with mutual disrespect. When it comes to Vader's relationship with his subordinates, he is shown the utmost fear and respect.
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  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Some of Vader's subordinates do talk back to him- but only in the most respectful fashion:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Daine_Jir
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  4. purplerain Force Ghost

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    I'd bet that Vader wanted hear Jir's advice.
  5. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Possibly. Or Vader's gotten harsher over time (in the EU, his tendency to execute subordinates is played up a bit, in post-ANH works).
  6. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    I feel the need to point out the following:

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  7. Barbecue17 Jedi Master

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    Fun discussion. I believe that in ANH and the surrounding era, Tarkin is pretty much the man and the Empire runs as a pretty structured military and governing body. Vader, while Palpatine's right hand man, is sort of kept out of things a bit. What purpose does Vader play early on? He oversees special missions for the Emperor, probably acts as the Emperor's eyes and ears, but largely stays out of day to day affairs. It's not until the Jedi reemerge (Obi-Wan and then Luke) that Vader's role escalates. Vader was kept around to look out for possible Jedi activity since we know not all the Jedi were killed and when Vader and the Emperor learn this, who else can intervene but a Sith? The power vacuum caused by the destruction of the Death Star presents an optimal time for the Emperor to insert Vader into a more official role while having him focus on the hunt for Luke Skywalker.
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  8. AnakinColodin Jedi Grand Master

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    His Imperial Majesty wanted his higher ranked subordinates including his apprentice to be jockeying for position. They did not even have to be formally part of the Imperial military or government, example Prince Xizor of the Black sun. HIM's purpose in doing this at partially was to keep Vader on his toes. In one recent comic Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison, Vader kills a young newly graduated Imperial Lt Tohm Because The Emperor said that Should Vader Die Tohm would be an able successor. Vader invited Tohm to meet with him and told him he had one lesson for him,"Never suffer rivals" and then tossed Tohm over the balconey with the force.
  9. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Another thing is that there is a chain of command.

    You can see this in most jobs, not solely the military. If my boss's boss tries to tell me what to do, he's disrespecting the chain (he should have went to my boss).

    But in the military, I think it would be this analogy:

    Colonel A is in charge of Regiment A
    Colonel B is in charge of Regiment B
    Major B is in Regiment B

    Colonel A cannot tell Major B what to do (this is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong), even though a Colonel outranks a Major. Major B is part of Regiment B which is led by Colonel B and thus Colonel A has no authority there and if Colonel A tries to order someone under Colonel B's authority around, it's a complete display of disrespect to Colonel B and the chain of command.

    So if we say that Vader and Tarkin are roughly the same "rank" (both answer directly to Palpatine), and people like Tagge and Motti are Tarkin's subordinates, then Vader is out of line in choking Motti since he is disrespecting Tarkin's authority. It doesn't matter if Vader outranks Motti, since Motti answers to Tarkin, not Vader. Also, the Death Star is under Tarkin's authority. So even though Tarkin and Vader might have roughly the same amount of responsibility in the grand scheme of things, Vader is on a battle station under Tarkin's jurisdiction, and so he has no authority there beyond what Tarkin offers him.

    This all assumes that people like Yularen, Tagge and Motti are indeed subordinate to Tarkin. They might all report directly to Palpatine as well and have no other superior, I do not know.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 20, 2013
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  10. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    In the In The Shadow of Yavin comic, Vader, when sent to oversee progress on the DS2, chokes people at the least excuse.
  11. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    That's not the way it was seen at the time. Early on, the script gives Motti's lines to Tagge- and this is what Star Wars Poster Monthly said about the scene:

    Star Wars Poster Monthly (November 2007):

    http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/image_popup_global.asp?Image=timetales/misc/arcana/post2-02.jpg

    "Unknown to Tarkin, Vader's hatred extends to all humans and not just enemies of the Emperor. This is made clear during a confrontation in the conference room of the Death Star in which General Tagge, a veteran warrior, foolishly scoffs at the power of the Force. Unmoving, Vader uses his extra-sensory powers to grip Tagge's throat from a distance, causing him to choke spasmodically and slowly turn blue from lack of air. Only Tarkin's intervention saves the luckless General's life."
  12. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Point taken in regards to Vader's motive.

    I'd be open to EU explanations, if there are any, in regard to who outranks who. It just seems to me that Tarkin and Vader are roughly equals and that neither answers to the other and both answer directly to Palpatine. Motti, Tagge, etc... I'm not sure. I'd guess that they are either in the same boat, or (gut reaction) that they are subordinate to Tarkin. In which case Tarkin has authority over his own men and Vader would be crossing a line in killing Motti/Tagge.
  13. Kenneth Morgan Force Ghost

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    I get the impression that Vader is, for want of a better term, the Emperor's hatchet man. While Tarkin is in overall command, and Vader respects him for that, Vader's basic orders are, "Do whatever you see fit to get the job done." While I doubt the Emperor would be happy if Vader, say, killed Tarkin, he (the Emperor) would allow it if Vader could make a good case that it was necessary. So, until and unless such a situation developed, Vader would obey Tarkin's orders when they suited his purposes.

    Besides, this is Peter Cushing we're talking about. He gives an order, you follow it.
  14. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    What about "Code Reds"? Does he condone the practice?
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 22, 2013
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  15. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    From the SWPM article above:

    "Obviously Tarkin believes that he has Vader under control and for a while Vader is happy to let him live with that illusion. However, the Dark Lord has greater plans than defeat of the Rebels and suffers Tarkin as yet another pawn in a much larger gameplan."

    From The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader - the Motti choking scene:

    Although Vader answered only to the Emperor, it was the Emperor's command that he serve Tarkin on the Death Star.

    From the Death Star novel: A scene just before the movie starts - in which Tarkin is musing:

    Vader, unfortunately, was beyond Tarkin's command, even though, as the first of the new Grand Moffs, he was a man whose whim was law law in the entire Outer Rim Territories. It was true that Vader's own manner of function was essentially the same philosophy as the Tarkin Doctrine, albeit on a smaller scale; still, it was ... disquieting ... to see the man cause an admiral or general across the room to fall over with a mere gesture as if shot.

    Vader's musing before arriving

    There had been, however, setbacks - accidents, sabotage, delays - and these were troubling to the Emperor. And so Palpatine had sent Vader to once again convey his displeasure at these setbacks to Tarkin's pet project, and to suggest - strongly - that the Grand Moff find ways to avoid them in the future.
    Tarkin was no fool. He would understand the message: Fail, and suffer the consequences.

    From Death Star Owner's Workshop Manual, General Tagges Personal Data Journal entry 49:

    Two significant portions of the Death Star complement will not fall under the normal command structure, but are worth noting. The first is the Emperor's emissary, Darth Vader, who will answer to Grand Moff Tarkin, and will not be subject to any other authority aboard the Death Star. Second, the Imperial stormtroopers. Both the Army and Navy may call on the services of the stormtroopers, but with the firm understanding that these soldiers fall under the jurisdiction of neither, and that their loyalty is to the Emperor alone.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 23, 2013
  16. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

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    Yeah, it seems that any rank that Tarkin, or anyone else other than Palpatine, holds over Vader is in theory only. No one, other than the Emperor, has the ability to actually enforce their authority over Vader if he doesn't recognize it. Vader could have easily killed Motti or even Tarkin. What's going to happen? The rest of the room gets mad? They die, too. More likely they just keep quiet in fear of their lives. What's Palpatine going to do? Kill his apprentice over Tarkin? I doubt it.
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  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    From West End Games's The Star Wars Sourcebook, published 1987 (a communique to Palpatine from an Imperial Intelligence agent, about Luke):

    This Rebel has shown exceptional piloting and starfighting abilities, and all indications are that it was his shot that destroyed the Death Star. He has also been seen wielding a lightsaber.

    Lord Vader insists that Skywalker is strong with the Force. As we do not know what the Force is, our agents have no way to test this. Requests to Lord Vader to describe the Force have been refused. (I must once again respectfully request that you tell Lord Vader to stop killing my agents. The Empire has put a lot of time and money into their training. If he doesn't want to talk to them, can't the man just say no like anybody else?)

    It's not the only source to hint at Vader's killing for relatively petty reasons.

    Interestingly, early sources suggest that Vader was Tarkin's underling, whom Tarkin sponsored in his rise to power in the Imperial military, when others considered him "mad human wreckage" after his injury at the hands of Obi-Wan.

    Only after RoTS, was Vader portrayed as having been "the Emperor's right hand man" from the moment he was put in the suit.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 23, 2013
  18. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Correct, but:

    When SW/ANH was made, Vader was just a hired gun brought in to keep order and do the Emperor's dirty work:

    Point being, Vader was, at best, the head of the secret police (and not a part of the military), and, at worst, a Boba Fett-type mercenary hired to find the DS plans and bugger off when the job was done.

    In the greater Saga context, I stand by my position that Darth Vader was someone that Palps kept in the shadows to do his dirty work, then promoted when the conflict with the Alliance escalated beyond minor incidents to full-blown war.
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  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Most of the EU works post-RoTS portray Vader as the public face of the Emperor's will- not a shadowy figure, but quite high-profile:

    Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader: HoloNet News comments on the Kashyyyk incident, in the first year or so after RoTS:

    "… At this moment, details remain sketchy," a celebrated commentator was saying, "but reliable sources have stated that the Wookiees were allowing a band of rogue Jedi to use Kashyyyk as a base for rebel strikes against the Empire. The police action is believed to have began with a demand that the Jedi be surrendered. Instead, the Wookiees resisted, and the result was a battle that left tens of thousands dead, including the Jedi insurgents, and perhaps hundreds of thousands imprisoned,"
    Bail and Mon Mothma traded looks of astonishment.
    "On Coruscant," the commentator continued, "Kashyyyk Senator Yarua and the members of his delegation were placed under house arrest before any statements could be issued. But, on the minds of many just now is the identity of this person, captured by holocam on a landing platform normally reserved for the Emperor himself."
    "Vader," Bail said on seeing the tall figure in black, leading a cadre of stormtroopers into the Emperor's building.
    "HoloNet News has learned that he is known in the highest circles as Lord Vader," the commentator said. "Beyond that, almost nothing is known, save for the fact that he led the action on Kashyyyk.
    "Is he human? Clone? The Emperor's own General Grievous? No one seems to know, but everyone wants to"
    "Switch it off," Bail said to Antilles.
    "Kashyyyk," Mon Mothma said in incredulity. She ran her hands down her face and stared at Bail. "We're too late. A dark time has began."
    Bail didn't respond immediately. Into the silence stepped Breha, holding Leia against her shoulder, and into Bail's rattled mind came thoughts of Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Leia's twin brother, Luke.
    "All the more reason to keep hope hidden," he said softly.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 23, 2013
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Tarkin eats breakfast 300 parsecs away from a thousand Rebels who are trained to kill him, so don't think that Vader can just come on the Death Star, flash a badge, and make him nervous.

    ...I think Vader obeyed Tarkin in ANH out of mutual respect, not because he had no choice. He could have kept choking Motti until Motti died, but he had already made his point by initiating the choke, and there would have been no benefit to continuing it.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    "He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview 2005.
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  22. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

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    I remember reading somewhere the Emperor placed Vader under Tarkin's control. I do not know where, and I could be wrong. Anyway, it's a possible theory.
  23. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    This just seems like something that Lucas changed his mind about by ESB, since nobody really pushed him around ever again, and Imperial officers showed him greater fear and respect.
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  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Well, Vader is on his own aboard the Executor in TESB, which has become his flagship just like the Devastator was in ANH and at the start of ROTJ. All he has are Imperial officers, but he still has problems. Ozzel dismisses Piett until Vader gives the final orders. Later, Ozzel screws up by coming out of lightspeed too close to Hoth, which costs him his life. Likewise Needa pays for failure. Even though he is in charge, the senior officers still question him. Piett doesn't because he's not an idiot. When Lucas set out to write ROTJ, he was going back to what he had in ANH with JerJerrod trying to boss him around and humiliate Vader, by capturing Luke, until Vader kills him. However, it changed into what we got with JerJerrod trying to grow a spine until Vader tells him Palpatine is on his way and then he turns to jelly.
  25. DLINE Jedi Knight

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    In my option vader is not really that good. I do t know how he made far as he did.
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