Saga Grandfather and grandson, Anakin and Kylo Ren: a comparison of characterizations and behaviors

Please explain this to me. It seems the consensus of the average, non "hard-core" Star Wars fan is that Kylo Ren is miles better than PT era Anakin.

...Why? To me, he's far, far worse. In fact, he's quite possibly the worst Star Wars character ever made IMO. We all know the infamous "tantrum" scene. Watching that in the theater, I was thinking "is this really happening?" After all the hatred throw Anakin's way, why were they going this route with him? But to my shock, everyone loved it. "He's better than Darth Vader, or that one-dimensional Darth Maul" they said.

No. First off, his tantrum was so pathetic, it's laughable. It makes him look like a fool. He's angry because of the officers losing the droid, or something. Worst of all, they have that cringeworthy part where the Stormtroopers walk away when they hear the tantrum. Was I supposed to laugh? Was this the "charm of the OT." I don't remember the villians having tantrums there.

But enough on that. The real problem is people giving Anakin grief over how he was portrayed in the prequels. He's supposedly the worst character ever because he's whiny and a jerk. Yes, he does have his whiny moments (like when he was not being given the rank of master, all that was better expanded upon in the novel.) He had a tantrum, but it was after HIS MOTHER DIED IN HIS ARMS. He had plenty of pressure put on him, and he had reasons to be angry. Kylo has 0, yet he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Anakin also had good moments throughout the PT that made me root for him. He's legit an 100% good kid in TPM, and there are several scenes in AOTC and ROTS that made me wish he wasn't destined to become evil (the Naboo scenes and when he says Obi-Wan is "like a father" are heartwarming.) Kylo? Nope. We're introduced to him in his "Anakin" stage, but he's already evil. There is nothing I can feel sympathetic about with him. He comes off as an arrogant, spoiled brat. I know his backstory will likely be touched upon in future installments, but I doubt I'll like him any more than I do now.

Honestly, I think a lot (not all) of people like Kylo better because he's in a Disney Star Wars film, not a Lucas made one. He has all the worst traits of Anakin, and none of the good ones. But, hey, that's just my opinion. What do you all think?

 

I think Kylo is the worst character in the history of Star Wars movies. Worse than Anakin (who I also hated), worse than Jar Jar.

 

I think that's the point.

The First Order is, in its entirety, a bunch of posers who want to be as cool as papa palps and the man in black. Kylo Ren is literally a crappy adolescent version of Darth Vader, with the inane hero worship to go along with it. He is an arrogant spoiled brat with parental issues going through a goth phase. He's a child trying to fill into his dad's shoes and failing miserably. Everything you said about Kylo is spot on, but that makes me like him as opposed to hate him. Because it actually is a character. Vader was essentially an enforcer throughout the first movie and most of the second, along with Maul and Grievous. Palpatine is just an old evil dude who likes to cackle. Count Dooku is one of the best villains in the series because he actually seems to have thoughts, feelings, and a personality.

Additionally, Kylo is the main villain of the series, at least at this point. Anakin was our protagonist for two and a half films. I mean, we don't see Darth Maul's touching backstory as an orphan before he pimp-slaps Qui-gon, or Palpatine's motivations for being a Sith before he's murdering the Jedi order. Getting a villain with some backstory that isn't retroactively added is pretty rare for this series.

Citation needed.

 

I think that's fair. I enjoy Kylo as a villain because of how far off the beaten path he is from what we've seen before him. We saw how Anakin's love for Padme and fear of losing her lead him down the Dark Side, but Kylo seems to idolize it, and tries to purge what good is left in him to achieve a level of evil he might not even be capable of. He's trying to become Vader without knowing the journey he took, how his good intentions were corrupted and twisted, and cannot find his own path down because of it. I find it all incredibly interesting.

 

One huge difference between Kylo Ren and Anakin - One of them can act so it doesn't come off half as bad!

Adam Drivers performance (to me) is far more complex and interesting. He pulls of a young Darth Vader far better than HC did...

 

Based on what we've seen so far, and only that, Kylo Ren is, indeed, a Vader fanboy, just like the First Order is made up of Galactic Empire fanboys. The problem with Kylo Ren is that he worships Darth Vader, and that's as far as his thinking goes. He seems to refuse to accept that Darth Vader was actually a fake name and a meaningless title adopted by Anakin Skywalker as a way to remove himself from the guilt and responsibility of his actions. To Kylo Ren, Anakin Skywalker, rather, was the fake persona.

I would hope that the next two movies will explore Kylo Ren (or, more precisely, Ben Solo) discovering just who's real and who's fake and just what heck he's been trying to do for all these years. The cumulative effect of such a journey made Anakin Skywaler, over the PT and OT, a highly interesting character. The jury's still out on whether Kylo/Ben can make the same journey, or even wants to.

 

Part of it is due to the significant difference in acting ability between the two respective performers. Then there's the relative quality of the dialogue that each had to work with. It's really an evolving question though, since we've only seen Kylo in one movie. His story & backstory are still unfolding. In the end people will have either more or less sympathy for him. We'll see. As for Anakin, the "mother dying in his arms" excuse is incredibly feeble. It's a good excuse for being upset & angry. Even for confronting & killing the armed warriors in the Tusken camp. However, to then systematically murder every woman, child & baby crosses right into psycho territory. Finding a dead relative, no matter how awful that is does not give someone a free pass to go on a killing spree. It would be like a biker gang kidnapping someone's mother. The son tracks them down & she dies. If he then kills some of the armed bikers, most juries would let him off due to provocation. However no society would let slide his slaughter of every women & child at the biker club. Then there's his second child killing spree in the next movie. Apart from his depiction as a 10 year old, he's really an appalling character.

Addressing the whining of both characters, I can understand people having issues with either or both. Personally I find Anakin's as the more pathetic & unappealing of the two, simply due to the portrayal. It's more of a pouting, sulking, sissy type of whining. Kylo's is more unrestrained rage. It's also quite well explained in the movie. He's on the brink, straddling the light & dark. His mind & temperament are being "torn apart". It's completely realistic for that condition to manifest itself via emotional volatility. How could it not? If he were calm as a cucumber I wouldn't buy his acute state of conflict.

 

Perfect.

 

Well, I think Kylo is more childish temper tantrum than any sort of rage. It's pathetic, weak, impotent. When Kylo is praying to Darth Vader, it's emo pouting. And, like the OP said, unlike Anakin he doesn't seem to have any excuses. So Kylo just comes off as a rich kid pouting about his supposedly disappointing father, while Anakin is a former slave whining about the supposedly repressive lifestyle of the Jedi and the tragic death of his mother.

People keep talking about Kylo being a pathetic loser poser as if that's interesting, but to them, I guess it is. There was someone in Lit posting all the reasons he thought the movie was good, but to me they were all the reasons I thought it was terrible. So. There you have it.

 

Except that Anakin was freed in TPM & chose to leave his mother & go off with strangers. No one forced him to. He could've stayed behind & looked after his mother as a free person. He was also whining & sulking before his mother's death. "In many ways I'm really ahead of him. It's not fair!!". Kylo's instability spills over into violent rage. Fortunately we haven't seen that level of sulking & pettiness from him so far.

 

With Kylo you have seen this much <-----> of a story that long <---------------> At the end you/we will be in a better position to understand him I think That being said - If you already don't like him I doubt that will change...

 

If Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raider camp because of his mother's death is feeble then why is it acceptable for Kylo to slaughter (or order the Knight of Ren to) Luke's other Jedi students just because he was mad that his mother kept his grandfather's identity from him?

Kylo seems to be getting a large pass in the TLJ spoiler thread with the justification that he was upset his parents lied to him or didn't disclose this information at some random appointed time in his life.

 

Sorry, I was going off what my friends IRL think. I shouldn't have generalized like that.

 

Someone give an actual example of Kylo Ren "whining" in TFA.

 

I guess Anakin should have stayed as a slave then, despite his mother's wishes for him to have a better life, if I'm understanding correctly?

 

Double standards are a path to the dark side.

 

Who said it was? Clearly they're both unacceptable. Mind you we don't know the situation with Kylo. Suspect there's more to it than your synopsis there.

Yes I know from previous discussions that is your position. I believe the fundamental difference between the way you view this compared to many of us, is that you look at Kylo's outbursts & apply real world normal human standards towards it. Thereby concluding that he's simply a brat throwing a tantrum. If he were a regular guy in our world you'd get no argument from anyone. However, that makes no allowance for what is literally an evil force in this fictional world called the Dark Side. What seems to be established in SW is that if you've fully embraced either the light side or the dark you can be stable & in control. When you're in a state of conflict between the two, that's a recipe for rage & volatility. The DS is so potent it can turn a person's eyes a freaky evil demonic yellow color. Or have them emit lightning from their hands. Yet you don't buy that a power that can have those effects can make someone prone to a few violent outbursts??

Getting back to a comparison of the way each character has been received. The differences come down to portrayal & tone. Kylo is shown to be unstable & so he has those outbursts. Where his anger boils over & he lashes out. As a side note, they deliberately depicted his lightsaber as appearing similarly unstable to mirror his own state. Those outbursts aren't really tantrums though. They're not about him wanting anything. He's not complaining to anyone. It's a case of something infuriating him & he's unable to control that rage. Control as we know is one of the key abilities that a Force user must learn. Clearly he hasn't mastered this in relation to the DS. Nevertheless, there's no pouting & whining - only anger. Anakin on the other hand is complaining & whining to people, whether it's Padme or Obi-Wan at the time he has his hissy fits. It's always "poor me", I'm being held back, it's not fair! It has that childish sulking tantrum element that Kylo does not. The other key difference is that the movie does not take Kylo's outbursts seriously. In fact it makes light of them & plays them for dry humour. None of that with Anakin. He unironically, with no humour involved pouts & sulks & screams. So IMO they're some reasons as to why Kylo's antics receive far less criticism than Anakin's.

No you're not. He was no longer a slave. He'd been freed. He could've stuck by his mother's side & told the weird guy with the beard to **** off.

 

I think a lot is to do with the fact we know what Anakin becomes, so to see this fearful enforcer as a child/adolescent with doubt and uncertainty is playing against who we know the character to be. The fact that these uncertainties are what prompt his transition to the darkside are actually necessary the story.

Kylo is different as we don't know enough about his back story (or future) to see if it's a necessary trait for his character to evolve. He appears to be a powerful and respected leader at the start of TFA, but then his character breaks and his interactions with those around him change after he removes the mask. Think how you see him when on Jakku and his interactions with Phasma and the stormtroopers to how Hux and Snoke are with him. I believe it's this frustration with wanting to please Snoke and be respected by Hux that are his downfall, we don't see Vader losing his cool as Palpatine and Tarkin are annoying him......although several leading chains of command being force choked to death in front of their minions could be seen as "having a bit of a moment!"

 

Not whining.

Anakin is seen periodically complaining about being held back from what he wants to be and do or telling us it "isn't fair!" that he has to do what he's told.

Ren is describing how difficult it is for him to know what the right thing to do is. And how to do it( or not do it.). Which isn't whining.

It's not a double standard. It's quite a clear and obvious distinction.

If you don't like stuff about Kylo or Anakin that's fine. But to say that one is criticised for whining and one isn't criticised for the same thing is just plain false.

The "emo" label is rubbish in relation to either character.

 

With Anakin, we're shown the reasons he's whining. He's not happy with his Jedi progression, he wants to help people more efficiently than the Jedi, he wants to be with Padme but can't without leaving his life, he is plagued by visions, his relationship with Obi-Wan is partially based on mutual resentment after Qui-Gon forced them together, Palpatine is manipulating him further from the Jedi.

With Kylo, we have absolutely no background to why he's angsty. Did his parents not love him? Did they spoil him? Was Snoke his mentor? Does he hate the Republic? Why does he look up to Vader? What was wrong with Luke's training? Why did he kill the other Jedi?

So it leaves little motivation to Kylo's outbursts, when his basic motivation is left vague.