Saga Grandfather and grandson, Anakin and Kylo Ren: a comparison of characterizations and behaviors

This sums up this discussion pretty well.

I would say the main difference is their ages and the fact that Kylo is still lacking an actual tragic event in his past. That and the fact that Anakin wouldn’t be able to kill his family in cold blood. Kylo is essentially a 30-year-old manchild still holding a teenage grudge against his loving parents.

And btw, I actually do like both characters. But they do share a lot of similarities, and the areas where they (actually) differ, are the areas that make Anakin a more sympathetic character. I sure hope they become more different characters with the next saga installments, but trying to make Kylo a character that had the same issues as Anakin did, is not the way.

 

I think if the argument requires some to repeatedly misrepresent the other person argument then it's perfectly civil to use the accepted nomenclature to point that out. Nobody is being accused either of ankle breaking(?!) either, which has nothing to do with what I said. Apologies if anyone took any unintended offence.

 

It's what Kathy Bates does. Which is why bringing her up produced that response from the mods.

 

Oh yeah. I forgot. She breaks Cann's ankles expressly because she discovered he got out of bed and tried to escape/call for help.That wasn't what I was talking about in any way shape or form.


The argument now just seems to be that some people can't conceive of any plausible, acceptable story reason for Ben turning against his family so people who have lauded Driver's performance and the depiction of Kylo Ren so far are turning a blind eye to the fact that the hypothetical depiction of Ben's fall can't be any better/plausible/acceptable than the depiction of Anakin before and during his turn, which some people didn't find unappealin or unsatisfying in execution.

Basically, arguing the preceived inherent lack of quality in something that doesn't exist, unless you accept that there is nothing unappealing about the execution of delivering Anakin's backstory.

Call it a strawman if that's not at all accurate. Since that is the accepted nomenclature for that type of thing.

 

Exactly, for some reason people expect to see the entire Anakin/Vader arc in one movie. We're supposed to get an imposing new villain AND get his tragic backstory AND see the seeds of his redemption AND while this is all unfolding, the writers should keep the classic characters preserved forever in their victorious post-ROTJ state. It's just ridiculous. Did we see the tragedy that turned Vader into the monster, that cut his former mentor in half in ANH? Nope! Did we get an explanation why Luke's father became space Hitler in ROTJ? Nope! All we learned is that he was seduced by Palpatine somehow, which was perfectly fine storytelling then, but now borders on being criminal when Kylo Ren is concerned.

Did Vader's turn reflect badly on Obi-Wan, as it apparently now does by default on Han and Leia? Did we get discussions pre-PT of how Lucas better not blame Vader's turn on sweet old Obi-Wan? Not that I recall... It's just so weird. Rather than be intrigued about how Han and Leia's son became the monster that he is now, and have some faith the story will be brought to a satisfying conclusion, the assumption is either that whatever the writers come up with will suck, or that we should have gotten six films worth of development in TFA alone, so it doesn't matter what they come up with.

 

Obi-Wan does blame himself hard though, in ROTJ (and even more so in the ROTJ novel) - so maybe fans were prepared to take his word for it?

 

Well Obi-Wan's reaction is one of feeling responsible, not unlike Leia who argues they lost their son the moment they sent him train with Luke, even though Han argues they did all they could. Apparently her word isn't good enough. They're Han and Leia, so they're supposed to be perfect...

 

He blames himself for not being as good a teacher as Yoda was. He doesn't blame himself for Anakin feeling held back, entitled, or for treating him unfairly.

 

"My arrogance has had disastrous consequences for the galaxy" - RoTJ novel.

 

Arrogant for presuming he could be as good a teacher as Yoda, as stated in the film.

It's natural for a parent or guardian to assume responsibility even if they did the best they could.

 

How about one of these things? Because I don't think we got even one of them.

I would have been quite happy with just an imposing new villain, without any hint of redemption. Didn't get it.

Didn't get anything interesting or sympathetic, either. Didn't get anything cool or fun.

You say this as if it isn't possible. Pray tell, why does the new villain have to be the offspring of the heroes?

But, starting the trilogy in a way that actually follows ROTJ would be nice, yes. I like continuity of story.

No, but we did immediately see Vader as one of the greatest "badass" villains in the history of movies, right away, with his iconic look and iconic voice, and all that.

You know what we got from Vader in ANH.

Nope, didn't need it.

It doesn't even try. It doesn't pretend that Vader's evil can be explained away, it doesn't depend on that.

Instead, it shows you a pathetic, broken down, shell of a man, wheezing, gasping for breath on his death bed, taking one last look at his son and (essentially) thanking him for having faith in him.

You know what we got in ROTJ. One of the most powerful moments of the saga. It makes grown men cry. And it does this with no real build up from ANH or ESB, it almost does it all on its own. Vader's redemption was really kinda out of left field, yet it's still overwhelmingly successful.

Did anyone care at the time? Who was Obi-Wan that anyone should care whether or not it reflects badly on him? Is he the hero of the OT? He's a washed up, defeated old man. He's a sad survivor. We didn't know anything about him, really. We didn't see his past. We don't care, we weren't attached to him.

TFA follows up on three movies. Whether or not it reflects badly on the heroes of the OT is relevant.

No, but people were interested in seeing this "good man" that was Anakin Skywalker, and were rather pissed at what they received.

Oh, and Idk if anyone thought old Obi-Wan was sweet. The lie he told Luke kinda soured a lot of people on him.

It's just not intriguing. At all.

That's TFA's failing, not mine.

I'm not going to force an interest that I don't have.

"Be intrigued". I'll be intrigued by things that intrigue, not just anything.

It was TFA's job to draw me in and get me interested in VIII and IX, and it failed at that.

This isn't a religion, it's a movie. I don't have "faith" in any movies. My interest is earned, not given for no reason.

Well, yeah, because TFA sucked, I expect more of the same. Why wouldn't I expect VIII and IX to be like VII? Why would I expect a sudden massive increase in quality? Especially since JJ will be doing IX? Especially since JJ has a history of sucking, a history of content similar to TFA? Will JJ suddenly become an entirely different artist?

What do you care, really?

Keep clinging to the "six films" defense. TFA doesn't have one film of development that has any value to me. It doesn't have any development that I'm interested in.

This could easily be the case, yeah. See: AOTC.

AOTC (specifically Anakin) was so catastrophically bad, it sunk the entire PT on its own. There was nothing ROTS could do to recover from it.


My ultimate thoughts on the thread topic:

Personally, I am surprised that Kylo has been so well received, but I know that opinions vary, and that's that. I've had some impulses to go into some conspiratorial thinking about double standards between the two and the reasons for them, but it's a paranoid waste of time.

Why do people like Kylo and not Anakin? Ultimately, I don't care. I'm not concerned with what other people like. I suppose it's a curiosity, though.

 

Sorry to tell you this, but as far as I can tell Kylo Ren was very well recieved by critics and fans alike. So, I really don't get this generalization that TFA, Kylo Ren, and JJ Abrams are somehow a huge failure, because YOU didn't like the movie. TFA's job was to drawn in the majority of movie goers, not you personally. I'm sure they were aware not everyone would dig it, and I'm sure JJ is not all broken up about the fact that you don't like his movie, especially considering he created the most profitable and highest rated Star Wars movie since since ANH and TESB.

 

Villain is immediately imposing when he strides out and ritually executes the kindly old man who wishes to see the Jedi restored. Then he orders the massacre of the villagers considered to be harbouring him and the resistance pilot caught in locus. Then he tortures the pilot to get information vital to seeking and presumably destroying Luke Skywalker, wherever he is.

So far, so Vader. Anyong going to argue that Vader wasn't imposing in the way he carried on in the same way?

When news of the pursuit of that info going awry reaches him though, cracks appear in the familiarly implacable facade. An hysterical display of violent temper ensues followed by a propietary reaction to the revelation that a Jakku local and a rogue trooper had become allied to thwart his plans.

Next we discover tha Han Solo (the hero's newfound albeit reluctant ally) has been placed in the sights of our villain by his evil boss. Kylo is then seen admitting that he fears being exposed as weak in the real villain's eyes, and beseeches a token of his grandfather's legacy, which is what he truly aspires to, and perhaps not to Snoke's wishes at all.

That's only halfway through and already there's many more times the character development than Vader had in his first two movies.

And we've not even got to what happens to him when he meets the scavenger who has caused him such trouble.

To say that there's no imposing villain in the film who has zero development is just utterly perverse. As is saying that a comparison with Anakin from AOTC is in any way relevant never mind necessary.

 

Welcome to the thread. It took eleven pages, but I guess you're finally here?

We were all well aware of the reception of the film. It's literally the topic of the thread.

You don't get it?

Did you think you were talking to Legion?

I'm a person and my name is Anakin Brian. You're getting my opinions, not the opinions of millions of others.

By your responses, it sure looks like you're upset that I don't like his movie. I've got you really riled up here, and all I've really done is say I don't like the movie and why.

 

I don't like Kylo.

Yeah, well, J.J. doesn't like you!

 

Back in the Legends era - it was argued that Jacen had a pretty sucky childhood in some respects - but the person arguing it went on to say that this still doesn't give his parents any responsibility for what he became:

Inferno round robin interview
​

RH: Is there something about the parenting style of Han and Leia that contributed to the dark path Jacen has taken? Do they bear any of the responsibility?

KT: I wonder if any of the Skywalker/Solo kids had a good upbringing? If Coruscant had a decent social services department, they'd have taken them all into care, I think - the risks they were exposed to as little 'uns were shocking. Ben's found his own way - which isn't easy for him. The offspring of the A-list can go nuts pretty easily trying to live up to legendary parents, as we know in real life.

AA: It's the generation gap, plus lightsabers.

TD: Jacen was captured by the Yuuzhan Vong and brainwashed by Vergere, so he's been through a lot that wasn't his parents' doing. Ultimately, though, the only person responsible for what Jacen has become is Jacen himself.

KT: Right. I agree that his experiences of the Vong with Vergere did freak him, and distorted his perspective on his own fallibility. But Jacen is actually just a very smart guy with an excessively high opinion of himself. Like so many of those in power, especially the most able, he edges toward the bad stuff a slice at a time, and it's all too easily done, all too easy to self-justify. He doesn't start out psychiatrically iffy, but power corrupts and also warps, and there's no doubt that power can seriously unhinge people. But there's no inevitability about any of it: many, many people who undergo terrible trauma and nightmarish family lives don't end up being conniving killers, and sometimes, despite their best efforts, the most decent, responsible parents produce appalling brats. In the end, the only person responsible for what we do is ourselves.​

Similar principles apply to Kylo - except - we haven't been given any reason to believe that in the newcanon he went through anything like the horrors that Jacen did.

 

I don't care that you don't like his movie. I'm interested in discussing the content of movies, and what aspects people like or dislike about the films in a respectful manner. What I'm not interested in is:

Because I don't think we got even one of them.

Who's this we? The Legion?

That's TFA's failing, not mine.

How so? Many people were intrigued, in fact I think the evidence point to an overwhelming majority. So, apparently your personal tastes or criteria for judging a film are at the heart of the issues you have with TFA.

TFA sucked....JJ has a history of sucking...

Broad generalization, stating your opinion as fact, doesn't work for me. It doesn't promote discussion. It's just trolling.

What do you care, really?

What makes you think I was addressing you personally? I will tell you what I don't care for: aggressive statements like this.

 

Yes.

No.

I did. Antilles died because Vader knew he lied to him, he helped destroy an entire planet because they, he and Tarkin, wanted to find out where's the Resistance Rebel base and he killed Kenobi because he was a threat to him.

What, you mean my comment about loving family is knowing all sorts of details about why Kylo turned?

Relax, these are just movies. I'm not sorry that my little post broke your endless... Well, whining, of how Anakin is a bad character.

OK, so he's sulking, brooding, arrogant creepster, he likes dictatorship (he's a great polititian, he knows everything about that), he's also one of the most gullible characters in history, a raging psycho who murders little kids and turns on the Jedi. And that's why he's not a heroic character and he does nothing heroic in the movies.
Yes, that convinced me.

That's good. As of now, I have no alternative to the ST. Where can I see a grownup Kylo?

 

Personal attacks are not allowed in this forum. You don't agree with me? You can formulate a counterargument. Otherwise we’re done here.

anakinfan edit: Don’t mini-mod. Report the post if you have an issue.

 

Anakin is heroic but he's heavily flawed. Heroes aren't always like happy go campy like Superman.

CT-867-5309

"No, but we did immediately see Vader as one of the greatest "badass" villains in the history of movies, right away, with his iconic look and iconic voice, and all that".

All that from ANH? Don't get me wrong, he was great in that but ANH doesn't warrant Vader to be that amazing of a villain when he's pretty basic. With all the six films interpreted as one? Sure. Hal from 2001 Space Oddessy, Jack Nicolsin or Sen-1872 from THX1138 were better antagonist.

To the thread(again)...

Kylo having mysterious backstory is not the main issue. It's more so that the film throws so much exposition dialogue of his backstory that it starts to get a little much, not to mention that he's more or less a repeat of Jacen/Anakin just with more edge. Seriously, when Disney meant retro...They meant it.

Even the PT wasn't safe...

 

I agree, but since when are statements that boil down to: movie X sucks, Lucas sucks, JJ Abrams sucks, Disney sucks, or blanket statements of the same ilk, discussing the content of the films? These statements tend to just spark animosity, and result in name calling. So, yes, I objected to this manner of discussion, especially since it was specifically directed at me personally. When I say, I don't care that he dislikes TFA, I mean he's welcome to it, and I don't care to change it, or take personal offense. I'm interested in discussing why he or anyone else likes or doesn't like aspects of the movies. However, to me "JJ has a history of sucking" doesn't constitute an argument, but is a textbook example of trolling. That is my opinion.

 

In my opinion, the opinion that there's nothing intriguing about Kylo Ren, a generally well received character by fans and critics alike, means that someone somehow can't see what it is that the majority of viewers found stimulating about him and his potential.

I don’t think that's less acceptable than ten OP asking for confirmation if the general reception of Kylo is something to do with liking Disney and not liking Lucas's characters.

 

I hacked your cameras and half the people posting here have taken their toy lightsaber and bashed the heck out their phones and monitors while responding to this thread.

Kylo is such a force dot net poster. I blame it on improper mod upbringing.

The last page and a half of posts have taken such a *violent* tantrum direction, that I stopped reading halfway down this page.

Kylo was a great character with a great setup that, IMO, was a bit muddy the second half. Nothing that can't become an intriguing part of his arc in the end however. And why would we care? Because we'd prefer to enjoy the next two movies and not completely write them off before they are even released? If I can put up with 3 seasons of Rebels, then the actual ST is pure heaven.