Saga Grandfather and grandson, Anakin and Kylo Ren: a comparison of characterizations and behaviors

What's your point? I'm saying he doesn't outwardly sulk & whine about his evil deeds afterwards, unlike Anakin the apologetic killer.

 

Ok so if Kylo suggests it's someone's fault and we know that he knows that isn't the full truth, not the actual reason, that'll be fine as long as the real reason, not just Snoke seducing him, is something credible and that we can intuit from the film that'll be fine.

 

The same thing happened in ROTJ. There wasn't a single hint of good in Vader right up to the point, where Luke asks him to come with him, which was more than halfway through the movie. We then get a single scene in which Vader for some unexplained reason states it is too late for him, and then spends a few seconds alone appearing conflicted, a scene similar to the one of Kylo and Vader's mask. By the time ROTJ was finished we still didn't know why Vader turned to the dark side, other than that he was seduced by the Emperor. So, while he has some different personality traits, Kylo was at a similar stage Vader was by the end of the OT, seduced to the dark side somehow, and conflicted, although the conflict itself was only hinted at in at most a few short scenes. The difference between the ending of ROTJ and TFA of course is, that Vader freed himself from the influence of his master and chose to save his son's life, while Kylo couldn't free himself from the influence of Snoke, and chose to kill his father.

To summarize, the entire OT didn't provide anymore information regarding Vader's motivations than TFA did being the first entry of a new trilogy. So, while I can understand some not liking the way Kylo was depicted, I think the idea that Kylo is underdeveloped in TFA compared to previous films is in my view easily debunked.

 

I don’t think it mattered that good wasn’t explicitly shown in Vader before it needed to be shown, as the movie wanted to keep audiences in suspense and wonder whether Luke was right or not about Vader.

But when the movie needed to show a villain with some good in him, it showed a villain with some good in him.

I do appreciate the parallel between Vader/Luke in ROTJ and Kylo/Han in TFA though.

 

Yeah, but the point of TFA was, that Kylo went the opposite way Vader did. It showed a few hints of conflict like ROTJ, and the protagonists discussing the good hidden inside the villain, which then set the stage for the final confrontation between father and son. I don't think anyone expected Vader to let Luke die, but I'm not so sure those that were unspoiled, thought it was as obvious that Kylo would impale Han.

 

Right, it's one of JJ's patented nonsensical twists. Vader is waking up to his conscience, and wants to do the right thing, but he's struggling to do the right thing. It's hard to the right thing. This is human and relatable.

Kylo is trying to kill his conscience, and wants to do the wrong thing, but he's struggling to do the wrong thing, because it makes him feel bad. This is inhuman and completely unrelatable.

Hey, just turn it upside down and that makes it cool. Total nonsense.


The redemption of Vader is one of the greatest achievements in movie history. That it was done without any justification, explanation, excuse, rationalization, etc is actually an astounding achievement. It was done almost entirely with sights and sounds, not lengthy exposition. That wheezing, gasping breath alone after Palpatine fries him was enough to provoke sympathy in anyone. The pathetic last request of seeing his son with human eyes was enough to provoke pity in anyone. That lightning reflected off his face. That dramatic lunge at the man torturing his son. It's an absolute masterpiece of movie making.

The "reason" Vader said it was too late is because he's a pathetic, broken down old man who has given up on life. It was not, in any way, mysterious. Everyone knew exactly what that meant. He thought it was too late to change, like many people do. It resonated with people. That's why he's sympathetic, why the redemption works, because it's human nature.

You could say Vader didn't have the strength to do what's right, until he did. Well, Kylo wonders aloud if he has the strength to do what's wrong.

So what has meaning is turned completely upside down, becoming nonsense.

 

I don’t know. That question was definitely meant to be there, and Adam was doing his best to convey conflict. But I don’t know if the question wasn’t also there because this is freaking Han Solo and no way the movie would have the guts to kill Han. I mean, that was what I was thinking when I was watching the movie.

Most of my friends thought it was obvious, but I think that’s mostly because the movie kinda telegraphed that the moment they put the two characters in a guard rail-less bridge over a bottomless pit with the reddish lighting and the overall Dramatic Setting. I would also say that Kylo showing only his villainous side in the movie didn’t exactly help the question “will he do it?”. I mean, would people even wonder if he would kill his father if his father was some random stranger?

 

Not only is it a pathetic, backward and unrelatable inner conflict, but they decided to place it 'as is' without any build up at all.

 

I can understand that, but for me, it just raised questions like "What has happened to him? Why is he doing this? What makes someone try to be evil?".
I am horrified and intrigued - and I like that.

 

You mean like Anakin's pathetic, backward and unrelatable complaining about Obi-Wan in AOTC. Lucas placed it "as is", but never bothered to build it up, showing that Obi-Wan was in any way difficult or overly strict with Anakin.

 

So I'm glad we finally agree that Kylo is just as bad as Anakin.

 

Not exactly, at least Kylo was portrayed by a better actor in my view. Also, Anakin's story is finished and thus won't get any better, while Kylo's will grow and expand.

 

It has a logic behind it, it's not backward or unrelatable: he's immature, he believes he is better, that he can do better, and that he should do what he wants. Many teenagers (wrongly) feel at some point that their parents are holding them back, due to their lack of maturity they act and do stupid things. Kylo is a 30-year old who's fighting the good inside him while forcing himself to be evil (why?) and pretending to be Darth Vader (sad). It's beyond illogical, pathetic, backward and unrelatable.

He showed. Watch the movie.

 

I've posted this elsewhere, but thinking of Kylo as Anakin 2.0 is only half the story. Yes, he's pulled under the influence of a malevolent power in the absence of a reliable support group and presumably lost trust in his former master. However, he's got some similarities to Luke as well. Even on a surface level, it's worth noting that when we first meet Kylo in TFA, he's older than both Anakin and Luke are at the end of their respective arcs in the previous trilogies (Anakin and Luke were early to mid 20's, Kylo is early 30s), with a control of the Force that we hadn't seen from either of them. Furthermore, in TFA, Kylo was tasked with doing something similar that Yoda and Obi-Wan implied Luke had to do in ROTJ: He had to kill his father. While Luke chose a different, unforeseen outcome, Kylo followed through, and given what we've seen from him in TLJ so far, he's pretty firmly in uncharted territory.

 

He showed he was needy and couldn't let go of his mother like he's supposed to so he whined about how unfair it was and how Obi Wan holding him back.

 

His mother was brutally tortured and murdered, and Anakin felt like he could have done something about it. Kylo's mother seems perfectly fine.

 

I think you are comparing to vastly different moments in the film. Why would Anakin's statements about him being held back needing build up? It was just to show a bit of the arrogance of Anakin.

 

As someone who is just about to leave their teenage years behind them, I can definitely vouch for this. It's why I relate to Anakin so well.

 

The problem is, the reason Luke had to kill Vader was because he (Vader) was evil. The reason Kylo had to kill Han was to become evil. Having a conflicted character wanting to do the wrong thing on purpose is a complete joke.

 

I think there's more of a shared path though. Yes, Luke was told to kill Vader because he was evil, but Yoda and Obi-Wan did not foresee that doing so would drive Luke to the dark side as well, and he was perilously close to following through on it. I think Kylo's motivation comes from wanting to prove loyalty to Snoke, and there's some regret on his part after killing Han, which is what makes his trajectory going forward so fascinating.

 

Kylo is a wannabe Vader. Not a wannabe Anakin. And he doesn't think it's evil.

You're barking up the wrong tree to assume otherwise.

 

It didn't show. Many teenagers feel held back by their parents, but that's because those parents tend to be overly protective and controlling. However, Obi-Wan hardly showed any of those traits. In fact I would say he was pretty patient with his petulant pupil. So, Anakin came across as overall pretty negative, arrogant, and unappreciative. So, the idea that Obi-Wan is holding Anakin back is not supported by the story. So, it's just thrown out there.

 

But it is in there, Obi-Wan does show signs of 'holding him back'.

First there's the argument in Padme's apartment, where he insists that they not exceed their mandate. Anakin wants to catch the killer, but Obi-Wan's reigning him in.

There's also this line: "Don't do anything without contacting either myself, or the council.", which is pretty indicative of a lack of faith in Anakin's initiative. -There's also a line from Anakin about Obi-Wan thinking him not yet ready for the trials. Maybe Obi-Wan's right, and he's not ready, but from Anakin's point of view Obi-Wan is stopping him from becoming a Knight.

In ROTS, we also see how the council in general are holding him back, denying his promotion to Master.

 

I disagree, there's nothing unreadonable in Obi-Wan's behaviour. Also, Anakin was the youngest member on the council ever. So, again this paints Anakin as arrogant, and the council as right not to trust him.