Saga Grandfather and grandson, Anakin and Kylo Ren: a comparison of characterizations and behaviors

Well yeah, from the council's point of view. But from Anakin's point of view this is an outrage, something this insulting that's never been done in the history of the Jedi being applied to him.

It's kind of the point that Anakin has a significantly different worldview from the council.

 

Seriously, watch the movie. It's great:

"We will not exceed our mandate, my young Padawan learner."

"We will not go through this exercise again, Anakin, and you will pay attention to my lead."

"We will do exactly as the council has instructed. And you will learn your place young one."

"He is not ready to be given this assignment on his own yet."

"Anakin, don't do anything without first consulting either myself or the council."

"I'm ready for the trials, but he feels I'm too unpredictable."

And this is just in the first 20/30 minutes in.

It is supported because that's how Anakin feels Obi-Wan comes across to him when he gives advice and instructions. We are on the outside, so we know better.

 

So, it's supported, because it's how Anakin feels, but the same does not apply for Kylo Ren. I sense a double standard.

 

It's how Anakin feels he comes across. Still, he is holding him back (from recklessness and misdeeds).

Not at all comparable to Kylo Ren, who feels... what? Based on... what?

 

Can we all please stop trying to compare a character with three films worth of development to a character that only had one?

 

He obviously feels he needs to continue Darth Vader's legacy. He also believes his feelings about his family is making him weak. He feels that by killing his father, he can snuff out that weakness, and his feelings of inadequacy.

What do you mean based on what? You've just argued Anakin's feelings are enough support in of itself, ergo there is no need for a basis for his feelings, and consequently also no need for a basis for Kylo's. In addition, there are two more films in this trilogy, and Rian Johnson has already stated TLJ will further explore Kylo's character.

Kylo Ren is a more developed villain than either Darth Vader in ANH or Darth Maul in TPM. No motivation for Vader's turn was provided in the OT across three films, yet you expect one for Kylo Ren in the first film in the ST.

 

To use your favorite term, that is nonsense. To think it's that kind of simplistic binary scenario - good people do good things & bad people do bad things, without any doubt or uncertainty. You're reducing people to robots with that harebrained logic. Kylo is being driven nuts in TFA bcs he's being pulled in both directions. There's an internal battle, a conflict going on from the moment he discovers that his father is involved with the girl he needs to pursue. When his father breaks into a FO facility & confronts him he's presented with a choice. It's a crossroads moment. I believe he is genuinely tempted to choose the light but he's too far gone & gives into temptation. As Yoda says, the Dark Side is very seductive. By fully committing & going through with that terrible act he hopes that will extinguish the conflict & finally give him peace. It is however in no way supposed to be viewed sympathetically or with any measure of understanding. It's an act of evil. Kylo is a villain, in case anyone hadn't noticed. Usually we don't get a glimpse into the psyche of a villain in these types of movies. Now that we are people are complaining that he's not a programmed machine-type of personality who's entirely evil during every moment of the story. Humans don't work that way, even most of the bad ones.

It's completely relatable. A bad person feeling some doubt & indecision when it comes to family is entirely relatable. Many of the most evil killers are often reluctant to turn on those closest to them.

What a joke. Anakin was an apprentice is AotC. He was simply being treated fairly & like any other apprentice. He supposed to follow the lead of his Master, observe & learn.
The Council didn't immediately elevate him to Master on the recommendation of some meddling politician? How outrageous. Apparently Snoke had deliberately been denying Kylo his full training. Thankfully we didn't see him whining about it.

Spot on. We go from angelic obedient lil' Anie in TPM to petulant, rude, ungrateful brat-Anakin in AotC. With no build-up or explanation as to how that came about. Obi-Wan seems completely reasonable. Also not a pushover. He's quite a strong disciplinarian. So how did this sulking muppet of an apprentice come about?

 

Of course he should have. As Anakin should have with Mace & Palpatine. Instead of going along with some cockamamie plan involving the use of evil powers to improve childbirth safety.
If Kylo had made the right choice though he'd no longer be a villain & the following movies would be pretty dull. What's with people wanting the villain to not be a villain? Or wanting him to be a programmed droid who suffers no doubt or conflict at any point. If you want a bad guy like that watch The Terminator.

 

But that's the whole thing. Ben doesn't see it as the wrong choice. Evil never thinks of itself as evil. He thinks that the dark side is the right thing and grows frustrated when he's shown that it isn't. He's doubling down instead of owning up, which is why I'm interested in seeing his journey.

You're consistently applying your own moral compass to the character and coming away dissatisfied when he doesn't follow it.

 

Funny enough, isn't that when Ventress started actually getting some morals?

 

And my point is that we're not talking about how likeable he is as a character, or how entertaining he is. This whole thing is comparing Anakin and Kylo, which I still say is a bad comparison.

If you like neither character for largely the same reasons, then there isn't much else to talk about.

 

That's where we need to factor in the extra-ordinary effects of the Force & in-particular the Dark Side. Think about all of the lines we know so well that describe it:

"Quicker, easier, more seductive..."
"Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will..."
"...was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force"
"You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my Master"

So given all of that, how can we apply real world standards to the behavior of someone like Kylo Ren? Surely it's a middle ground where none of actions are excused but at the same time it can't be that surprising that he fails to resist those dark temptations. For that to be "relatable" we need to partially use our imagination & allow for the fantasy element that involves the Dark Side.

 

I love the way Kylo's story is told, but these things are actually not obvious at all. He never once claims to feel weak, or that he believes feelings for family = weakness. He does appear conflicted and therefore weak, but it hasn't been explained why he wants to continue Vader's legacy.
Now, we can draw conclusions, but the movie is vague enough for us to be able to draw different conclusions, as evidenced by the opinions expressed in this thread.

Anakin's feelings are based on a reality that is played out in front of us. He and Obi-Wan have disagreements. Anakin's behavior is rash and he doesn't quite fit the humble padawan mold, so Obi-Wan reigns him in as a stern parent. This makes Anakin feel held back.
That's not to say that Obi-Wan is necessarily wrong for being stern, but one can definitely listen to lines like "And you will learn your place, young one", "What took you so long?", "Only in your mind, my very young apprentice", "Anakin! How many times have I told you?", "Once again, you've proved...", "Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?" and "Then why don't you listen to me?" and see that there's room for improvement in their relationship.
Anakin might be difficult to handle, but it's ultimately Obi-Wan's responsibility as Master to make it work - and it's clear that this brash young man, whose ego has been surreptitiously fed by Palpatine, is very sensitive to the kind of reprimands that Obi-Wan gives him.

So even if we disagree with Anakin's view, it's clear as day where it comes from.

Kylo, by contrast, says that Han means nothing to him, implies that he was a disappointing father and tells him that he's being torn apart, that he wants to be free of the pain inside of him - while we get no context. We have absolutely no idea what their relationship was like beyond Kylo's vague, subjective statements.

Again, I love what they've done with Kylo so far, but his story is really not handled the same way Anakin's was.

 

I really don't get this argument. What is right to you does not have to be right for anyone else. Kylo Ren has been brainwashed to believe in a set of ideals similar to the Nazi philosophy, and to put those horrendous ideals ahead of everything else. In Nazi Germany people were expected to turn in their family members, if they suspected they were into illicit activities, often sentencing them to death. This does not imply many Nazis did not have doubts about the methods applied to pursue those ideals. However, they were also taught not to feel compassion for their enemies, not to feel compassion for the weak and disabled. So, why does Kylo not do the right thing? Because he's been conditioned not to. He feels he's betraying his master and those ideals when feeling compassion, when he feels the pull to the light. In his view Snoke's way is the right way, while the path his parents have chosen is wrong.

 

No. It's the topic of the thread.

I've never said any of this. In fact, the very post you quoted says nothing even resembling this. It actually says otherwise. In fact I've said otherwise quite a few times now.

You're just creating straw men because you don't have a real response to what's on screen/anything I've said.

More straw men. This literally has nothing to do with anything I've ever said. You're not even addressing my points.

I've never, ever complained that he's "not a programmed machine-type of personality who's entirely evil during every moment of the story".

We've been at this before and you have never, ever been able to deny or even address my main point.

Oh, yes he does.

Not usually, but in the case of Palpatine, he does. Palpatine's probably a rare exception, though.

This was pretty much the original topic of the thread. How they're similar (according to some), yet one character has been received much more positively. Why?

People have been giving answers to that. Some think they aren't very similar, or that the details make a big difference. Etc.

People who agree with the op have been commenting on how they're similar.

I remember when I first saw TFA, I was pretty surprised they made Kylo the way they did, after the way Anakin was received. Sorta like, this again? I thought they would have learned their lesson. I really, really didn't expect it.

 

They didn't make Kylo like Anakin. Anakin was supposed to be the hero (?), while Kylo is obviously the villain. Kylo is still largely a mystery, so we don't know the full picture yet, a picture which to me seems linked to the mystery surrounding Rey. My issue with Anakin is the way Lucas opted to further develop the character in the PT:

1) Introduce the character in TPM as a happy kid with the best of intentions, but than adding some hamfisted attempt at foreshadowing not supported by his characterization in the story.

2) Effectively re-write the character for AOTC as a sulking, brooding, arrogant creepster, who appears to be in favour of a dictatorship, without providing any backstory for how the happy kid became so rotten. Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship is presented as strained, which seems inconsistent with the OT.

3) In ROTS Lucas realizes he still has to establish the friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, and we get to see a little more of Anakin's mature and heroic side, but he quickly devolves into one of the most gullible characters in history. Worst of all after appearing conflicted for most of the film, he suddenly turns a switch and becomes a raging psycho, murdering little kids, and turning on the Jedi, Obi-Wan and Padme without much motivation, aside from raking in the dark side points.

So, while I agree the details surrounding Kylo are sketchy, I really don't see how anyone can argue he's the same character as Anakin given we've only seen him as the villain in one film, while Anakin has had six films worth of character development going from hero kid to conflicted hero/villain to allround bad guy to redeemed Force ghost, although I personally didn't like where Lucas took the character in the last three.

Now even if you don't like the way Kylo was presented in TFA, this still doesn't say much about the character as a whole, since we only have a small part of the story. I would still say Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is a great character, because of his characterization in the OT and TCW, despite being critical of his characterization in the PT.

 

^ Completely agree. I'm still amazed that the most important development in the entire Saga, the reason for Anakin's turn, which people waited decades to discover turned out to be this: Anakin is as dumb as a bag of rocks. Which was surprising bcs Vader in the OT always seemed to be quite a bright fellow. Turns out that unfortunately when he was in his 20's he decided to turn evil & begin killing everyone bcs he thought that maybe possibly his wife could die in childbirth bcs he saw it in a dream. At the same time, out of a stunning coincidence a creepy old politician (who turned out to be a Sith Lord in disguise for years, which automatically qualified him as a master of deception) tells Anakin that he happened to know of some "powers" which can save his wife from dying. Right when Anakin was having these disturbing dreams. What are the odds!? All Anakin needed to do was sign a standard Sith Apprenticeship Contract, take his new evil title & then murder everyone, including all of his fellow Jedi & his best friend. Oh, the old Sith guy (now with a monster face) happened to also mention that only "maybe" will they be able to "discover the secret" of this anti-death spell. Hell of a deal that one. Apparently Anakin thought all of that was a better idea than taking a month off & checking Padme into the best prenatal care facility available. And you know, not killing everyone.
We've spent a lot of time here on Anakin's whining, & it is annoying, but that pales into insignificance next to the unforgivable level of gullibility Lucas chose to bestow upon him. We can quibble back & forth about Kylo's motivations & behavior, but I think we can at least be confident that we won't be seeing that level of bonehead storytelling. Where an intelligent character is temporarily lobotomised just to suit a poorly conceived plot.

 

Opinion noted.

I think it does. Among other things I can say, it says enough about the character for me to be completely uninterested in seeing him again.

I agree completely. I've spent years talking about how ******* stupid it was.

Apparently all Kylo needed to do was sign a contract with Snoke, take his new title and then murder a bunch of people, including his own father, even though he doesn't really want to, because he doesn't really hate his father.

Kylo doesn't actually want to kill Han, but he does because.....

Not the best start to the trilogy.

I have no confidence whatsoever that we won't see it. In fact, I think we already have.

KYLO REN: Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish, like his father. So I destroyed him.
HAN: That's what Snoke wants you to believe but it's not true. My son is alive.
KYLO REN: No. The Supreme Leader is wise.

As you can see, Kylo responds with a brain-dead non-sequitur, like Anakin on Mustafar, or this:

PALPATINE: When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us, along with all the Senators.
ANAKIN: I agree. The Jedi's next move will be against the Senate.

^ Here Anakin turns brain-dead and mindlessly agrees with whatever Palpatine says. Above, when Kylo is confronted, he just mindlessly appeals to Snoke as an authority. It's not a good counterargument, not a good response. Kylo seems just as brain-dead as Anakin.


JJ just loves his twists. He thinks they're clever. I think they're idiotic. Since he's coming back for IX, I expect more of it.


EDIT: I didn't have a lot of expectations for TFA, but one of the thoughts I had to comfort myself was "at least it won't be as bad as the prequels". I thought there was really no way it could be as bad as TPM or AOTC.

It was worse. I didn't think that was really possible, but it happened.

I didn't think there'd be a character as bad as Jar Jar or Anakin Skywalker. No way. They'd make sure to avoid that.

Kylo Ren was worse than Anakin and Jar Jar.

 

Where did you get this? We don't know a thing about the circumstances surrounding Kylo's turn. In fact we know as much about the circumstances surrounding Kylo's turn than we did surrounding Anakin's turn at the end of the OT. Now unless you're arguing you were able to predict the way Anakin's turn would unfold back in 1983, you're argument really doesn't make much sense. And where did you get that he really doesn't hate his father? There's a big difference between hating someone's guts, and driving a sword through their chest. So, yeah he has doubts on following through with it, but ultimately the influence of his master, and his hatred are stronger than any other sentiments he may have had.

Again the situations cannot be compared. Anakin was shown to be heroic only moments earlier. He turned in Sidious despite his internal conflict, only to suddenly go ape**** on everyone he held dear moments before. Kylo Ren has been a villain for the entire movie, and evidently has been under the influence of Snoke for a number of years. He's not brain-dead, he's brainwashed. He is tasked to sever his ties to the past completely. It's not an easy task, but he fulfills it. Kylo is at a very different stage of his development than Anakin. The problem with Anakin is, that he skipped that stage of development completely. He went from conflicted hero to all out villain in a matter of seconds.