ST Gray

The OT saw the light defeating the dark. The PT saw darkness almost extinguishing the light.

What if the ST is about balance, but within the individual. Maybe balance isn't about the number of Jedi vs Sith or "good" vs "evil", or any of the other debates we've had over the years ? What If Rey (and/or Luke) come to the conclusion that fear and anger are valid emotions, and are not necesarrily bad as long as one does not turn to hate. That peace and justice sometimes require righteous anger, tempered with wisdom and compassion.

I'm not exactly thinking EU-style gray Jedi...but something about unification rather than separation.

I know it's a reach, but some parts of the soundtrack seem to be the opposite of what one might expect...minor keys where you'd expect majors etc. March of the Resistance feels somewhat imperial to me and less purely heroic than the rebel fanfare cue in the OT. The Jedi Steps seems somewhat somber to me.

Lastly, Lucas had said years ago that the ST would be about moral ambiguity to an extent.

Anybody else see things in the film that might back this up?

 

Just like Luke, Rey seemed more than a little angry especially towards the end. I suspect Rey will learn to overcome it while Kylo was unable to and subsequently refused training by Luke. I do wonder if Kylo will show them that anger is inevitable and that it does not instantly create monsters as both his parents and Luke seem to have had a strong role in turning Ben into Kylo. I think closing yourself off to love and anger will be the major change as Luke/Rey will try to teach their students to control it instead. Of course this is largely speculation at this point as we don't have enough details about his back story.

 

Sure do. All 50 shades of it. *ba-dum-bum-ching*

 

Actually, Rey's garb goes from light, more like Luke's to grey by the end. I think she definitely taps the dark side at the end before the chasm tears Ren and Rey apart. I think she has awakened but lost a little innocence along the way.

 

The novel says something along the lines of her tapping into the dark side during the Kylo fight.

 

I didn't need to read the novel to tell me that. It was obvious. All that stabbing and slashing, not Jedi like at all.

 

I think they will explore what "balance to the Force" means. Does it entail reconciling the two sides? This reconciliation could occur at the individual level--in the mind and spirit of each Force user and at the macro--galactic level.

In the prequels, the Jedi are shown shifting from "guardians of peace, not soldiers" to generals in a galactic civil war. After centuries, they lost sight of their own mission (or Palaptine not only clouded their vision but corrupted their purpose). In ROTS, Obi-Wan says: "only a Sith deals in absolutes…" This itself is an absolute comment. To a certain extent, both sides are entrenched in extreme positions. Fanatics on both sides. It is at least suggested that QGJ's philosophy was more rooted in being in tune with the Living Force. Yoda and Obi-Wan seem to have adopted a different approach in the original trilogy--possibly by learning from past failures and communing with QGJ. It's significant that they don't explicitly teach Luke that attachment is forbidden. Yoda does not instruct Luke to give up his connection to Han and Leia. He merely questions how best to serve them. Nor do they instruct him that Vader must be destroyed. Instead, it's that Vader must be confronted. This is notably different from their tactic in ROTS--to destroy Palpatine and Vader. Luke is able to navigate this middle course by ultimately refusing to fight the Emperor and thus appeal to his father's sentiment. We don't know enough yet, but Luke's reaction to the academy attack could be an extension of this. Rather than engage in the galactic struggle, he chooses exile until the moment is right--until the Force awakens.

How has Luke's philosophy developed post-ROTJ? Does he conceive of a Jedi Order that is distinguishable from what we saw in the prequels?

 

I thought her closing her eyes and connecting with the force was a more peaceful and "light" approach. Like she was allowing it to flow through her without being consumed by hate. Don't dark side users normally just get crazy eyes and start swinging with extra aggression?

 

Yeah, this is the series where a little flip of the color symbolized Luke's ability to resist the dark side, so I think both costumes in that last shot are open for interpetation.

 

These movies are about good vs. evil. Plain and simple. Not shades of gray. Bringing " balance" to the force means that the Jedi defeat the dark side (Sith, Empire, First Order) and rid the galaxy of the scum that kills and hurts innocent people. There are no shades of gray here.

 

To follow-up my last comment, Obi-Wan's change between the two trilogies is reflected in his ANH duel with Vader. After years in hiding, he did not use this as an opportunity to overpower and destroy Vader in a lightsaber duel. As Vader recognized, escape was not his plan. He chose self-sacrifice by ending the fight as soon as Vader could look across the hangar bay at his son. He smiled as Vader saw Luke. Despite his comments to Luke ("more machine now than man, twisted and evil") there is a recognition by Obi-Wan that Vader still has good in him. He plants the seed of empathy and compassion for Luke. This is mirrored by Luke throwing his lightsaber and refusing to engage further against the Emperor. Both gave up, betting that Vader could be saved.

Disagree. They're not mutually exclusive concepts. The prequels and ROTJ show that there are shades of gray in this story of good vs. evil. The prequels are focused on how an innocent slave boy grows into an evil maniac. ROTJ shows that this great villain can see the light. This is an exploration of gray.

 

I was just responding to the previous poster. It was fairly obvious to me, as well. The book just confirmed what was not said.

 

I think the idea is eliminating the cause of the dark side users. Killing Palpatine, Vader or any individual sith will never be enough. Anger, jealousy, fear, greed will always exist so you have to learn to control them rather than block them out completely. Although I actually agree that even this wouldn't be enough and ultimately Star Wars should remain about defeating the people that simply are selfish and cruel while saving/redeeming those that haven't gone too far.

 

And that is a valid POV, but it should be pointed out that this wasn't the original vision Lucas had for VII-IX. Even the maker felt this was an interesting topic worth covering.

Again, though..anger and fear are not evil even though PT/OT Jedi are taught these are the path to the Dark Side.

Luke's teachings may be different.

 

I think Luke's teachings were different. From what we saw, Yoda and Obi-Wan had a different approach and then told Luke to pass on what he has learned. He was far more spiritual and less dogmatic.

So the interesting question is how the sequels tackle this. How does the galaxy find peace between warring factions that seem polar opposites. Based on limited information, the New Republic is inept. It can't fight its own battles and instead has turned insular, unaware that the First Order has constructed such a lethal super weapon. They've outsourced the fighting to a separate entity altogether. The First Order is meanwhile hell bent on annihilation and genocide. At the galactic level, they need to restore peace. For the Force users, they need to achieve personal balance.

As a side issue, can the sequel trilogy bridge the differences between the prequels and the classics? Can they bring the saga back into balance

 

I'm sure this isn't any revelation to most of you here, but I thought it was awesome that while Kylo is talking to Han, and he's tearing-up and explaining how he's in pain because he feels as if the Force is pulling at him from two different directions, over his left shoulder the background is lit with blueish-white light and over his right shoulder the background is lit with red light. Then when they look behind them and above to see the sun being winked-out by the sucking action of the superweapon, the blueish-white light fades away and the red grows brighter and overtakes the light being reflected on his face, and his face becomes totally red, and then he stabs Han.

 

The light on Ren/Ben's face is similar to the light/shadow on Luke's face during the ROTJ duel. When he's hiding, half his face is shaded with blue and other half is light. He is at a similar pivotal moment.

On the direction of the Jedi/Anakin's journey: the comparison between his two turns is instructive. In ROTS, Mace Windu is about to kill a seemingly defenseless Palpatine in violation of the Jedi Code (repeating Anakin's own mistake in murdering Dooku). Anakin rushes to defend the seemingly helpless figure. In ROTJ, Anakin is again confronted with the Emperor destroying his son (consistent with Sith philosophy). He again intervenes to assist the helpless. In these two moves, he destroys the old (corrupted) Jedi Order and the Sith. What Luke builds has to be better. It has to learn from the past mistakes. This requires a different approach.

 

Certainly seems the ST has a theme of grey/balance

Snoke finds Kylo/Ben to be something of a perfect mix of light and dark side (though oddly he's trying to snuff half of it out when that's the very thing he praises) and I believe him to probably be the character carrying the most weight, being the newest of the Skywalker lineage. Unless Rey turns out to be one too, in which case we've got a very interesting duality going on

 

I agree with you here. In Star Wars, there is definitely a "good" and "evil" as Palpatine is probably the personification of evil and Yoda, the personification of good. However, that is not to say that the destiny of the characters are preordained. Anakin and Ben (Kylo Ren) fall to darkness, yet Anakin redeems himself by saving his son, while Ben does the opposite and commits patricide. Luke is also tempted by the dark side (the dual in the vision in Dagobah) but ultimately stays within the light. "Always in motion is the future", says Yoda, which I have taken to mean that the future isn't set in stone.

 

Star Wars won't end with Episode IX, so don't expect a final synthesis of the saga in this trilogy

 

Glad to see I wasn't the only one to notice this. Ties in nicely with the Dark Side being the quicker path and the complaints about her beating Ren. Would love to see Ren trying to turn Rey in VIII.

 

It will be interesting to see what motivates Ben Solo's turn to the dark side / how Snoke manipulated him and twisted his mind.
I was never a big EU fan but after having read Shatterpoint and ROTS, a Matthew Stover novel would really capture it.

 

She starts letting the light flow through and guide her. Then towards the end you can see her tapping the dark side. She would kill him if the ground didn't break up and separate them, and it kind of snaps her out of it. She has the same look in her eyes that Luke has when he chops Vader's hand off on DS2.

 

Now that I've read the quote about the 'grey' from the Journal of the Whills opening of the novelisation, I'm convinced that this is something that they'll explore. Finding the balance within oneself.

Snoke seems to represent some of these themes, too. I'd always had an inkling that Snoke's 'awakening' line was rooted in Zen Buddhism, but his costume ( a particularly high collared Chan Buddhist robe ) , and Kylo's desire to rid himself of his emotional connections and identity to achieve something like a Dark Side version of Nirvana, have convinced me that these ideas have influenced his character.

There is a quote from the visual dictionary, which states that Snoke believes Kylo to be the ideal embodiment of the Force, as he has equal potential for both Light and Dark. Whilst this seems difficult to reconcile with what we think of as a traditional Dark Side viewpoint, but it's interesting in light of the Journal of the Whills quote.

 

Ah ok thanks, I must have missed that the first time. I really need to get my second viewing in soon.