ST Gray

I dont think Disney is going to do this.
Disney wants the good guys good and the bad to be bad.

 

aaaaaaand this is why I partly think Rey is the Chosen One.

 

Interesting. But since TESB, SW is about shades of gray. Jedi Masters lie and cheat dice, but remain in the light. And Yoda and Kenobi can get angry, but they don't give. And younger Kenobi had bravado.
Anakin always had anger and ego. He gave into the dark side in AOTC, cried his way and talked with Padme to return to the light. He didn't think killing Dooku or Palpatine was right. Yes, he wanted to keep Palpatine alive for Padme, but executing these two Sith Lords was neither the Way of the Jedi or legal according to the Senate. He gives into the dark side knowing it to be wrong, then after killing the Separatists he cries knowing cheat he's doing is wrong.

Whereas Palpatine and Maul were evil from the beginning--though Palpatine did have a moment of compassion in ROTS when he touched the head of Vader (whom he excitedly yelled, "Anakin!" when he first saw him on Mustafar). But Dooku was one of the greatest Jedi Masters of his time, the best swordsman, a believer in the Living Force an idealist. Yet he left the order and became a Sith.

That said, in the crawl at the beginning of ROTS we read there are heroes on both sides. And Palpatine and Dooku believe their cause is just.

Quinlan Vos isn't a dark sider, but he lives in the shadows.

Asajj Ventress goes from Nightsister to Jedi apprentice to an apprentice of Dooku to her own boss to a good person.

The Nightsisters have their own unique understanding of the Force.

In ROTJ Luke says he felt good in Vader, this feeling would have been experienced diegetically in TESB.

Luke also nearly gave into the dark side in ROTJ.

Snoke believes that Kylo is unique in him is concentrated the light and the dark, giving Snoke the material to create a masterpiece. And Ren is conflicted as he feels the light attracting him. He tells his father he is conflicted before killing him to plunge into the darkness.

I don't believe in a Potentium or a gray or a gray Jedi as Jinn was rumored to have been.

The Force is based in part on Eastern philosophies and religions. The harmonious natural order of things which consists of life and death, creation and destruction, is Force or the light. But when himan beings violator rest order out of negative emotions, such as anger, hatred, greed, lust for power, selfishness, that is the dark side.

We all have the dark side in us. Yoda faced his in the last episode of TCW. Acknowledging it and not giving into it leads to the light.

In Mortis the Father isn't gray, but represents the Force while the Son and Daughter lived in harmony.

In this theodicy, how can something perfect as God, Buddha, or the Force allow for evil, there is a paradox. From one point of the view, the Force is the light and dark on grand scale o in harmony. But for finite sentient beings, the dark side is not only our negative emotions, but also living out of harmony and distorting the Force. From this point of view, the light is the Force.

I wonder if Mortis is the first time the light side of the Force is used in a canonical source. In the 2nd and 3rd drafts of ANH, we do have the Ashla vs the Bogan, but in the OT I don't ever recall hearing the light side. The Jedi use the Force in a positive sense, the dark side in a negative sense. The Sith use both the Force and the dark side positively. With one exceotin the contrast is Force vs. it's dark side, not light vs. dark. IIRC, in ROTJ, Luke tells Leia that he wants to turn his father to the good side of the Force.

Again, in the PT, I don't recall the light side ever being used. It's the Force and the dark side.

I could be wrong and someone please correct me if I am.

So, what is the canonical source in which the light is first used if it isn't any of the 7 previous films, TCW included? But the last one I don't remember much of. Come to think of it, when Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, who refrains from killing him, Palps said his master taught him both sides of the Force because you must have a broader understanding. Don't recall if mentions the light.

Interestingly, I don't recall Maz telling Rey to experience the light, but she definitely tells her about the Force.

Han mentions the Force and the dark side, but not the light side. It appears the good guys see the Force as encompassing the light and the dark AND as being inherently good, but not neutral.

It is Snoke and Ren who mention the Force, the light, and the dark side.

 

This is great.

 

I don't think there is any evidence of this. In fact, the evidence thus far contradicts your statement (it also presumes that Disney is in charge of the overall story arc). Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is a character torn between the dark and the light. His conversation with Vader's helmet reveals his inner turmoil. Since TESB, this has been a saga that explores the shades of gray.

On the historical influences of the Jedi--clearly Eastern religion but there is also the Jesuits.

 

I've long believed the spiritual philosophy of the three trilogies should closely reflect the "middle way" in Buddhism.

In broad strokes, the Jedi teach to suppress emotions and operate without attachment to anything (nirvana comes from suffering), while the Sith teach that emotions are a source of power and to crave power (nirvana comes from worldly pleasures). The Jedi fall because Anakin couldn't cut ties with his emotions, and the Sith fall because his emotions include the love for his child. Both orders fail because they practice extremes that are impossible for any living thing to fully commit to.

I'd love to see this trilogy introduce a group that practices something where emotions aren't controlled or used, they are merely experienced. Emotions may influence your decisions, but they don't make them for you.

I'd also love for members of this group to be more powerful than any normal jedi or sith because the force is more powerful when you aren't trying to bend it to your will or perceptions of right and wrong.

 

I think killing his pops totally erased that.
That was a strange scene because apparently they dont know that Vader turned on the Emperor?

 

The same could be said of Anakin killing younglings, yet he was redeemed.
Someone posted that in the novel, Snoke and Ren reference that Anakin did get sentimental in the end and save Luke. Based on that, they are aware of his turn.

 

I think one of the interesting themes all of the movies pose is that of Free Will vs Destiny.

We know that there was a prophecy which foretold of a Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. Destiny. But the way in which this actually happened (if we are still to assume that Anakin was this Chosen One) was more about Free Will. So, to a degree certain things may be destined, but that does not mean they follow a strict path.

Also, consider the Jedi Council from the prequels. They are restrictive in their teachings. They are reluctant to allow Anakin to be trained because of their beliefs. And every step of the way, they continue to question him. Anakin even *tells* them straight away that Palpy is the Sith they are looking for, but Mace Windu still addresses him with doubt, essentially saying (paraphrasing) "If your information turns out to be correct, then I will trust you." And this idea that attachment is somehow a bad thing for the Jedi, well it's actually kind of absurd. To feel compassion for all things but to not feel attachment is almost to cut yourself off from making actual connections. The Force, as Yoda has said, is in all living things--it is what binds.

It can also be argued that the Jedi Council's willing embrace of an army of clones--but still *people*--to fight for them is not exactly ethical. The clones are essentially reduced to automatons--people without Free Will. How is this any different from the First Order's use of troopers through conditioning? It could be said to be a matter of perspective, I suppose.

So, basically, I think the Jedi Council of old is problematic. Their teachings are far too restrictive. This is in part why we see history repeating itself. Part of Anakin's fall is *because* of those teachings and those restrictions. The Jedi bear responsibility for that. And they will continue to bear responsibility until they are willing to understand that sometimes, we must evolve beyond what we have been taught is traditionally "true" or "correct."

As long as you have one extreme, the other extreme will naturally evolve as a counter to that. So yes, I believe that to actually bring balance to the Force, there needs to be more of an understanding and an acceptance of what lies between--the gray. I hope we see more of that explored in these next few movies.

 

Disney is not Disneyifying SW any more they didn't Disneyify Pixar or Marvel. There's blood in this film. Han throws a man into the mouth of a raphtar.

Ren is conflicted and kills his father. Rey taps into the dark side.

 

That's a brilliant way of thinking. I liked it.

 

OT was more graphic. When Obi cut the hand of that dude. When we saw the skeletons.There was smoking, drinking, and loving in the Cantina. This time around the Cantina scene was mega tame. Just people playing games.
Ren wasnt conflicted. That whole scene shows you how evil he is. He was playing with Han. Dude is mega evil.
Help me do this dad. What is this, son? TO KILL YOU ! MWA AHHAHAHA!

When did Rey tapped the dark side?

 

The strongest visual motif in TFA was light vs. dark - with the villains even physically creating darkness by essentially eating stars. So I think the ST will continue the OT's tradition of demonstrating the virtue of the light.

 

She was noticeably angry when she took down Ren.

 

Snoke's views on the Light are interesting.........

Rather than being dismissive of the Light side of the Force, as Palpatine was, Snoke seems to value it to some extent, at least in Kylo Ren:

"Ren straightened. “It is your teachings that make me strong, Supreme Leader.” Snoke demurred. “It is far more than that. It is where you are from. What you are made of. The dark side— and the light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work. I have— you.”

The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.” Ren nodded once. “Sentiment.” “Yes. Such a simple thing. Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment— had the father killed the son— the Empire would have prevailed. And there would be no threat of Skywalker’s return today.”

Snoke teaches Kylo that his emotional attachments and the identity of Ben Solo must be discarded, and destroyed. Kylo's costume reflects this: masked, and clothed in tightly bound robes, his identity hidden from the world.

He's not very successful in this aim, though:

“Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish, like his father.” Ren’s reply was replete with pity. And anger. “So I destroyed him."


Snoke's philosophy differs from the Sith. Rather than embracing passions and emotions, he negates them, destroys them. He seems to be preaching something resembling a corruption of the Buddhist concept of Nirvana, in the sense that identity, and emotional attachment are foregone. His talk of showing Kylo Ren "The Darkness", seems akin to the Voidness, or Sunyata of Buddhism, too. I also suspect that that 'Ren' is actually a play on 'Zen'. Effectively giving us The Knights of Zen:

"Nirvāṇa (/nɪərˈvɑːnə, -ˈvænə, nər-/;[2] Sanskrit: निर्वाण nirvāṇa  [nirʋaːɳə]; Pali: निब्बान nibbāna ; Prakrit: णिव्वाण ṇivvāṇa ) literally means "blown out", as in a candle.[3] It is most commonly associated with Buddhism.[web 1][4]
In the Buddhist context, nirvana refers to the imperturbable stillness of mind after the fires of desire, aversion, and delusion have been finally extinguished.[3] In Hindu philosophy, it is the union with Brahman, the divine ground of existence, and the experience of blissful egolessness."

"Śūnyatā (Sanskrit, also shunyata; Pali: suññatā), translated into English as emptiness, voidness,[1]openness,[2]spaciousness, or vacuity, is a Buddhist concept which has multiple meanings depending on its doctrinal context. In Theravada Buddhism, suññatā often refers to the not-self (Pāli: anatta, Sanskrit: anātman)[note 1] nature of the five aggregates of experience and the six sense spheres. Suññatā is also often used to refer to a meditative state or experience." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Void_(philosophy)

This doesn't seem to be the whole story with Snoke, though. If he wishes to negate emotion and identity, or individualism, why does he value the Light in Kylo? Given that his name could well be a fairly obvious play on 'Snake', is he essentially the serpent, the corrupter? His goal is to corrupt the Light, and the greater the potential for Light, the greater the reward for corrupting that potential. In this sense, this would be reminiscent of the relationship between light and darkness in Manichaeism, wherein a dualastic cosmogony of light and darkness, previously in harmonious balance, is thrown into chaos by the actions of the kingdom of darkness:

"Originally, good and evil existed in two completely separate realms, one the World of Light, ruled by the Father of Greatness together with his five Shekhinas (divine attributes of light), and the other the World of Darkness, ruled by the King of Darkness. At a certain point, the Kingdom of Darkness notices the World of Light, becomes greedy for it and attacks it. The Father of Greatness, in the first of three "creations" (or "calls"), calls to the Mother of Life, who sends her son Original Man (Nāšā Qaḏmāyā in Aramaic), to battle with the attacking powers of Darkness, which include the Demon of Greed. The Original Man is armed with five different shields of light (reflections of the five Shekhinas), which he loses to the forces of darkness in the ensuing battle, described as a kind of "bait" to trick the forces of darkness, as the forces of darkness greedily consume as much light as they can. When the Original Man comes to, he is trapped among the forces of darkness."

"Great demons (called archons in bar-Khonai's account) are hung out over the heavens, and then the Father of Greatness begins the Third Creation. Light is recovered from out of the material bodies of the male and female evil beings and demons, by causing them to become sexually aroused in greed, towards beautiful images of the beings of light, such as the Third Messenger and the Virgins of Light. However, as soon as the light is expelled from their bodies and falls to the earth (some in the form of abortions – the source of fallen angels in the Manichaean myth), the evil beings continue to swallow up as much of it as they can to keep the light inside of them. This results eventually in the evil beings swallowing huge quantities of light, copulating, and producing Adam and Eve. The Father of Greatness then sends the Radiant Jesus to awaken Adam, and to enlighten him to the true source of the light that is trapped in his material body. Adam and Eve, however, eventually copulate, and produce more human beings, trapping the light in bodies of mankind throughout human history. The appearance of the Prophet Mani was another attempt by the World of Light to reveal to mankind the true source of the spiritual light imprisoned within their material bodies."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

If this was to fit the context of TFA, then I guess that Snoke perceives the potential within Kylo ( his 'soul' ) as the battleground, and the corruption, or consumption of the Light within him as the prize. This might give some insight into the 'Grey' quote from the novel. If Luke is to defeat an enemy whose very purpose is the corruption of Lightside potential, mastering the balance of Light and Dark within himself could be the best defence.

 

The sequel trilogy was always supposed to be morally ambiguous and be more shades of grey than black and white good vs evil.

But Disney might not follow through with any of Georges ideas so. But really the dark side is not separate it is just as much as part of the force as the light side, to ignore it, is to ignore part of yourself.

 

I definitely agree the should explore the 'balance of the force' aspect and I have always said it would be interesting to see an interpretation of the force that is not overwhelmingly light or dark. I have suggested this before but usually get shunned away when I do. Lots of people like the strict Dark/Light dichotomy without any reasonable middle ground in between. I hope the ST takes a more balanced approach, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

Interesting topic. There are always two sides to every story and history is written by the victors. Kylo refers to Rey's friends as Murderers, Traitors, and Thieves. Snoke has convinced him that the Jedi are the aggressor in this battle. In the novelization Kylo even mentions to Rey that she fired the first shot, forcing him to defend himself. In fact that she should not be afraid of him, but he of her.

The First Order destroys the Republic, but their comments are because they are funding the "Resistance" that is out to destroy them. I look forward to more backstory of the narrative that Snoke told to Kylo to bring him to the Dark Side.

 

Very interesting thread. While the Jedi were overly strict in the PT, I don't ever recall them teaching apprentices to ignore their negative emotions, but more to be aware of them and not to be controlled by them. This is a perfectly acceptable and realistic point of view and is in line with real world spiritual concepts. Having said that, there is an overemphasis on them. Yoda's repeated warning of anger, fear, hate, suffering etc effectively creates a fear around those emotions, when they should be treated with compassion like any other emotion.

Considering the concept of 'the force' from a storytelling point of view, Star Wars will go around in circles of good v bad until the centre ground is embraced. Maybe Luke has already accepted positive and negative emotions and how to harness the force around them without succumbing to the dark side. That would make him the supreme power many of us hope him to be - someone who is able to seamlessly 'switch' from light to dark without losing his self concept and ideals.

I definitely think this is the way the ST is going, and it may finally give us an answer as to what 'balance' means in relation to the force. The PT era Jedi saw it as the dark side being destroyed, but that is their subjective and unrealistic poin of view. Grey Jedi who can harness the force using the full range of emotions without being corrupted either way is the very embodiment of 'balance'.

 

Light and Dark are not mutually exclusive. Together they create Shadow