CT Greedo Scene, is it even needed now

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by WhiskeyGold, Sep 17, 2011.

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  1. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Was the Greedo scene added after the Jabba scene did not work? Cause it seems they both are done to show Han as being wanted and a smuggler type. Also even some of the same dialog. Now that the Jabba part is back in, could the Greedo scene be cut? If Lucas didn't like the Han killing Greedo, I think I rather see it GONE than how silly it is now. It just looks bad.
  2. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    No, it wasn't. Greedo's scene was there from the beginning, but with slightly different dialogue (it didn't reveal why Han was wanted). After the Jabba scene was eliminated they added some of the dialogue from that scene to the Greedo scene (the "identical dialogue" is from the scene with Jabba, you never actually see Han saying it because he wasn't there during the reshoots).

    However, it is a classic scene, an homage to the classic western films, and it works quite well with the new blu-ray edit.
    (they could've taken some of the dialogue out, though)

  3. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Does it look better on the blu-ray? I always loved that scene but they Greedo shots first just looks bad.
  4. Muzz Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2007
    I agree, actually.

    Both scenes convey the same information. In the grand scheme of things, Han's feud with Jabba the Hutt is more important to the saga as a whole than Greedo. Cut Greedo entirely and you also sidestep the matter of who shot first.

    Either that, or change the dialogue in Greedo's scene such that it removes any redundancies (i.e. all references to the Falcon being boarded should stay in the Jabba scene) and preferably have Han shoot first again. Not because of the usual character-based reasons (although they are important), but simply because the updated scene with Greedo and Han shooting at the same time ruins the tension of the preceding series of close-ups of Han slowly unholstering his blaster. It is strange that Lucas, who is very passionate about film editing, did not seem to notice this, or thought of it as low priority.
  5. CaptainHamYoyo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2011
    star 1
    Per the Art of Star Wars book(episode 4 A New Hope), which includes the script from the movie(revised 4th draft January 14, 1976), both the Greedo scene and the Jabba scene are in the script, both times Han saying something to the effect of "even I get boarded sometimes, I had no choice".

    So while that line is redundant, it was in the script that way.
  6. Grand_Moff_Jawa Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    The obvious choice is to put it back the way it was. Get rid of the Jabba scene. Seeing Jabba that early ruins the surprise in ROTJ. Han basically mocks Jabba in this scene and makes him seem like a stooge. It ruins the first view of the Falcon later in the movie. There are several good reasons why the Jabba scene should be removed. The Greedo scene is a classic! I can't believe anyone would want it deleted. Besides, Greedo's language sounds so freaking realistic and awesome!
  7. Bring_My_Shuttle Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2006
    star 1
    Agreed, just remove it. It does NOTHING for the story and just waters Jabba down in the process. Greedo pretty much established that Jabba was uncompromising..."You can tell that to Jabba. At best, he may only take your ship.". But now Jabba travels all the way to the spaceport to confront Han directly (I always pictured Jabba as this Don Corleone character, who gets others to do the dirty work) and then Han just BS's his way out of it and Jabba is like oh well, let's go. Jabba sends out a bunch of bounty hunters to track down Han, but he just easily finds him himself. huh?

    And yeah, GL did intend for the scene to be in originally, but thankfully it didn't make it in. Rather than being a jump to another location, the Greedo confrontation flowed seamlessly in the Cantina scene and succinctly established the world that Han lives in, and thus his character.

    btw, Greedo shooting Han is strange given how Jabba himself let Han off the hook. The more GL tweaks, the more he ruins.
  8. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    Not quite. As another member noted upthread, the Greedo dialogue (4th draft version) was originally different, and did not explain exactly what Solo was wanted for. The lines that are later repeated in the Jabba scene were added in looping/ADR (revised 4th draft). You never see Han saying the revised lines to Greedo because the scene was filmed with the original dialogue.

    ETA: If anything, it's the Jabba scene that needs to go, as it is redundant and spoils the reveal of the Falcon.
  9. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Why does Han call Janna a human being?
  10. Mortimer_Snerd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    Originally that scene was shot with an actor...a human. Back then, before Jabba became a big slug-type thing for ROTJ, that dialog was simply closure for the scene. With the digital insetion of what we all know Jabba to be now, actually makes it kinda funny, and it fits Han's urbane sense of humor.

  11. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    Yet Lucas maintains he originally planned to replace the actor with "some kind of stop motion animated character". So according to the author, the line "you're a wonderful human being" was meant to be ironic.
  12. DarthMane2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 4
    Lucas says a lot of things that are utter BS.
  13. Grand_Moff_Jawa Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5

    If that's true, why did Lucas put the man in costume? I mean, if he was going to replace him anyway, couldn't he have worn jeans and a t-shirt?
  14. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    Not only that, but Rinzler's Making of SW book - with it's contemporary-with-production narration - states that "bad costumes" (or something to that effect) and "lens/camera problems" are the 'technical' reasons for the cut - it says nothing about 'running out of time' to finish the 'stop-motion creature' effect. The high probability is that the stop-motion creature idea came up AFTER Star Wars was first released...possibly intended for a future re-release (80'/81': a sort of early, 'special edition').

    Edit to Add:

    So Merlin is right that Lucas claims this (and has claimed this for quite some time), it's just that this claim isn't likely to have been the original intention at the time the movie was made.
  15. morpha2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2005
    star 3
    Or perhaps they were leaving the option of using the scene as filmed with a costumed human being if the stop-motion monster idea couldn't be realized.
  16. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Nope, the way the scene was shot it was literally IMPOSSIBLE to add a stop-motion character into the scene. (it was still incredibly difficult in 1997!). The scene was shot without any regards to the special effects, with Ford interacting very closely to the actor, moving around him, walking...
    Plus, there is absolutely no evidence of any plans for a stop-motion creature, and the script doesn't mention that Jabba is supposed to be an alien at all.
  17. Muzz Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2007
  18. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    To get back on topic...

    How about they cut the Jabba scene and have Han shoot first again?
  19. TrakNar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    I heartily agree. Leave Greedo alone. And each subsequent render I see of Jabba is so overly bump-mapped that he has more nooks and crannies than an English muffin. Jabba's scene is redundant. Scenes are left on the cutting room floor for a reason.
  20. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    Lucas says: "I imagined Jabba would be furry, but we just never had the time or money to do that shot, and I had to eliminate the scene. But I always wanted it in there." (Annotated Screenplays, 1997)

    Presumably the fur-clad actor was meant to give the stop-motion animators a guide for texture and lighting.
  21. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    I appreciate your noting that, at the very least, my claim is correct. The question appears to be whether Lucas is lying/misrepresenting the facts. You've decided he's lying, whereas I see no evidence to support that assertion in this case.

    It's worth pointing out that the cited account in Rinzler is not mutually exclusive from Lucas' explanation, "we just never had the time or money to do that shot...". All referenced considerations are equally supportable, from "bad costumes" to "lack of time and money" to "can't afford a stop-motion replacement".

    You appear to be drawing certainty (the reason was only lens and costumes, per Rinzler) from ambiguity (the reasons were multiple, including lenses, costumes, money, time, etc., per Rinzler and Lucas). You are choosing the explanation which supports your opinion that Lucas is a liar.

    (Please keep in mind I was the first on the 'Net to show that, in the early drafts of SW, Anakin was distinct from Vader -- this even before Zombie wrote his book. I am not a blind Lucas supporter. But I need more concrete evidence before I will agree that he fabricated his Jabba-was-a-furry-stop-motion-creature claim.)
  22. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    This too. :cool:
  23. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    The first statement asserts facts not in evidence. This is a logical fallacy known as reification. Using all caps to spell "IMPOSSIBLE" is meaningless bluster. Harryhausen's work in the 1950s - 1970s -- esp. Jason and the Argonauts and the Sinbad epics -- are sufficient to counter your spurious claims that stop-motion creatures could not be inserted into shots in which actors and/or the camera move.

    Lucas' various drafts and scripts do not give Jabba's species one way or the other. The 1976 novel, adapted by AD Foster, describes Jabba only as a "great mobile tub of muscle and suet topped by a shaggy scarred skull...". (Suet is raw beef or mutton fat.) You are not allowed to use this as evidence that Jabba was originally human, since it neither supports or denies that claim.

    There is a great deal of certainty being drawn from ambiguity here. Jabba might have been an alien and he might have been human... both are options Lucas likely kept open, so he could act depending on how the shooting of the Docking Bay 94 scene turned out. Lucas' account (they couldn't afford to do the stop-motion properly) plus Rinzler's (the live-action costume looked cheap or unconvincing) seems perfectly reasonable to me.
  24. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    To be fair to our esteemed opposition, the bolded phrase was added to all published scripts post-SE, beginning with The Annotated Screenplays (1997).
  25. Boom_Pow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2009
    once again, this is exactly how I feel. I found the insertion of the Jabba scene in ANH interesting simply because it was footage I've never seen before but I don't feel it belongs in the movie because like you said, it ruins the surprise in Jedi. I also feel like it cheapens the character. Hearing about him in ANH and then again in ESB, with the added tension of "a death mark is not an easy thing to live with" really added to the power of the character. The fact that we finally get to see him because our heroes have to rescue his due to the fct that enough was enough with Jabba builds even further on that. Then the final stake is that opening sequence when 3PO and R2 are making their way to Jabba's palace, building up the tension for the viewer who for the last 2 movies and 6 years have been wondering "what's this Jabba" all about. Getting him in ANH takes away from all of that.

    I also agree how it ruins the reveal of the Falcon. "what a piece of junk" wasn't cheapened as bad as Jabba but I felt that seeing the ship that they discussed in the Cantina for the first time along side of Luke has a much stronger effect.

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